Fatality off Bald Head Island - NC

[Thalassamania]

...
Lecture? I think your reading the wrong post. ...

I don't see oxtox here either.

 

[CaptJT]

Originally Posted by CaptJT
One in full seizure could not breathe.

Where did you get this info from ??? Someone who has had a heart attack and dies does not breathe.

The report states he died of an air embolism now you are changing it to a heart attack?
If he was having a seizure he could not breathe, he could not breathe if he was dead as suggested below. Ask yourself this do you really believe he just had an air embolism happen at depth causing oxtox like symptoms. Suggesting he had a heart attack doesn't fly with the autopsy report. In all the autopsy reports I have read they word that something like this "The cause of death is ruled an Air Embolism proceeded by a heart attack, a natural event."

I applaud aheavyD for an effort to save his friend, having had many friends try and save divers in similar situations the out come is almost always the same. Once in a while one is saved and that is what we strive for.

He pressed his own purge button. I think he died after he pressed and his body went stiff holding the button in. I know his hand on the rope was stiff as I had to also pull his hand up as he was holding it. When the air ran out he was still holding the reg with the purge pressed in. I never have trained that way or know anybody that has. If he was holding it in I was hoping he was breathing. I really didn't care about it. What he did was take another task off of me while trying to raise him. I was more interested in getting us both to the surface in a controlled accent. If the accent caused the embolism why didn't I get one? It was caused due to the both of us being in a decompression dive. He went to the surface and got bent. I swam back down to do my decompression so I wouldn't get bent.

 

[fpsndiver]

AGE is a possible outcome of an OxTox hit at depth, and just being within the recomended limits is no full out gaurantee. Here is a link to an article about both pulmonary and CNS Toxicity: Oxygen Toxicity Signs and Symptoms In the article, in the CNS Toxicity portion, the Doctor does discuss that barotrauma are highly possible subsequent to an OxTox hit at depth.

Either way, it isn't any of your faults, we are all susceptible to OxTox hits at varying percentages. There were lots of deaths on wrecks (one in particular) in the Northeast that were labeled, "Deep Water Blackout", and the symptoms described in those, are much like what you saw on the bottom. IMHO, CNS Oxygen Toxicity is a major suspect in those cases. The fear of CNS Toxicity, and the unknowns/unpredictability that surround it are what have caused many rebreather divers to dial back to a 1.2 or 1.0 continuous pp in their loops. Because it is a bit safer, statistically.

It was not my intention to offend any of you, frustration that ME's and USCG aren't properly equipped (in most cases) to make a determination as to the exact culprit in diving accidents. Honest discussion of any CNS incidents is critical to the dive community at large, especially Technical Divers. The current limits may be set too high, especially during extended periods of diving/or long dives. I do also participate in such dives, and therefore, I am concerned.

I can tell you this, I dive EAN30 at the Fossil Ledge, and I'm thinking that needs to be dialed back. Hence the curiosity about your mix. Regardless of whether or not you disclose here what your mix was, I will be dialing back to perhaps even compressed air on any dive below 100 fsw and eating the deco time. I'll have to play with the clock scales, as the clock is running during deco too. A nitrogen DCS hit, while very worrisome to me, is somewhat less worrisome than an Oxygen Toxicity Hit at depth. They are difficult to survive, because if you are seizing, respiration will be extremely abnormal, at best. Surfacing, which is an absolute neccesity at this point, may also cause an AGE. Either way, an Oxygen Toxicity Seizure is very, very, scary.

I greatly admire how you were able to get your buddy to the surface, and you obviously did everything you could to save him....there was nothing more you, or anyone else could have done to change the results.

 

[CaptJT]

I don't know who you are or why you joined here to post once to this thread, and I really wonder where in the hell you get your "obvious" conclusion?

Is he with you?

I did not notice the name until now either someone is using his name or it is him I do not know. But I have not seen or heard from Cob in 12-15 years. He was one of the original three that started VBTech in Va Beach back in the middle nineties if it is him. We (Cob,Widen,& myself)started that group to mentor divers pursing the tech-end of diving. We actually had a diver tox on the Doria and was saved. He must have signed on to see what happened with Amy as he/we had dived with them during that time frame and saw this thread then chimed in. Small world.

 

[ahava]

Originally Posted by CaptJT
One in full seizure could not breathe.




The report states he died of an air embolism now you are changing it to a heart attack?
If he was having a seizure he could not breathe, he could not breathe if he was dead as suggested below. Ask yourself this do you really believe he just had an air embolism happen at depth causing oxtox like symptoms. Suggesting he had a heart attack doesn't fly with the autopsy report. In all the autopsy reports I have read they word that something like this "The cause of death is ruled an Air Embolism proceeded by a heart attack, a natural event."

I applaud aheavyD for an effort to save his friend, having had many friends try and save divers in similar situations the out come is almost always the same. Once in a while one is saved and that is what we strive for.

Never said he had a heart attack. Just saying oxtox cant be verified as well a heart attack cant be verified in all cases. Still would like to see the source where it shows you cant breathe during a seizure. These seizures are usually resolved by ascending (lowering the ppo2) where muscle control is restored. Daily thousands of people have seizures and survive. I believe they are breathing, maybe not normally, but still breathing. Of course the the autopsy says embolism, what would expect.. 70 min at 105ft with no deco stops. During the 1.5 hours that myself and others peformed CPR the DCS was becoming very evident. We will never know with 100% certainty the cause but to us that knew him, dove with him, trained with him,hung out with him, we feel oxtox/cns was not the cause.

 

[CaptJT]

Never said he had a heart attack. Just saying oxtox cant be verified as well a heart attack cant be verified in all cases. Still would like to see the souce where it shows you cant breathe during a seizure.

oxtox provably no........ Heart attack yes it can.......a full oxtox seizure will not allow a breath....... seen it already.

These seizures are usually resolved by ascending (lowering the ppo2) where muscle control is restored. Daily thousands of people have seizures and survive. I believe they are breathing, maybe not normally, but still breathing.

Once you are in full seizure until it is over you will have no muscle control. Yes thousands survive everyday but not underwater. You've never seen one or you wouldn't be saying that.

Of course the the autopsy says embolism, what would expect.. 70 min at 105ft with no deco stops. During the 1.5 hours that myself and others peformed CPR the DCS was becoming very evident. We will never know with 100% certianty the cause but to us that knew him, dove with him, trained with him,hung out with him, we feel oxtox/cns was not the cause.

Really, what I would expect is a case of the bends. What I expect to see when a diver has a oxtox and is taken to the surface is an air embolism. DCS could not have been evident as you cannot see DCS only the symptoms and they need to be conscious for that.

 

[ahava]

oxtox provably no........ Heart attack yes it can.......a full oxtox seizure will not allow a breath....... seen it already.

Once you are in full seizure until it is over you will have no muscle control. Yes thousands survive everyday but not underwater. You've never seen one or you wouldn't be saying that.


Really, what I would expect is a case of the bends. What I expect to see when a diver has a oxtox and is taken to the surface is an air embolism. DCS could not have been evident as you cannot see DCS only the symptoms and they need to be conscious for that.

I have seen severe seizures with the person still breathing.

You can see DCS in the skin. It is very evident. And you can see bloody foam from the mouth. also very evident. And you dont have to be concious for that.

 

[CaptJT]

I have seen severe seizures with the person still breathing.

You can see DCS in the skin. It is very evident. And you can see bloody foam from the mouth. also very evident. And you dont have to be concious for that.

Every diver I have seen come up from underwater who has been unconscious aspirates the foam wether they were down for one minute or a 100 mintues.....that is not DCS. I shouldn't even have to say what the blood is, I have only seen the skin bends on the living.

 

[bankyf]

Every diver I have seen come up from underwater who has been unconscious aspirates the foam wether they were down for one minute or a 100 mintues.....that is not DCS. I shouldn't even have to say what the blood is, I have only seen the skin bends on the living. But you are entitled to your opinions. I will request this accident report with the others I plan to get and see if I can get it, if you'd like for me to post the details and conclusions let me know. I must warn you that in most cases they are disheartening to everyone on board as the report can't be argued with and I have not seen a single one be kind as they are not prepared that way.

Non-scuba drowning victims will aspirate the foam as well.

 

[Garth]

I've witnessed a few seizures in a hospital setting and breathing "if you want to call it that" is so inadequate a drop in oxygen saturations was common among all the people. I could definitely see an air embolism from an accent with a seizing diver.

On another note.... People fake seizures and I've seen that too. All of those were breathing fine and turned out to be moderately psychotic.