Fatality in Rockport, Ontario - 4/Feb/2006

[Jay Roy]

I'm going to step into this not as a diver but as someone who is local to the area and although I've not met the individuals invloved, they are a members of our close knit dive community here. I myself have just recently joined this community and we are all devastaed by this unfortunate accident.

I'd like to request that we all show some repsect for the victum and compassion for the other divers involved and not armchair quaterback this.

I know that as divers we are taught to look at an incident and try to learn from it, but perhaps we could wait unitl the official reports are made public and remember that you are not talking about some abstract or hypothetical scenario.

There are actual people involved in this, and out of respect for their feelings, perhaps we can suspend the crituque of the recovery diver's actions, and the second guessing of the victum's situation, until the facts are made public.

In particular, any discussion revolving arround the recovery and the victum's potential survivability this early on, seems callous and could be hurtful to the survivors.

We will have time later, after the grieving has taken its course, the hurt as subsided a little, and the details are made avaiable, to review this and hopefully learn from it.

Sadly

Rick
aka Storm

It seems like the only thing we can do is speculate and armchair quarterback these things. For example, the Tiller wreck fatality earlier this year...I've still not heard the full and REAL story as to what happened there...And IMO that dive broke PADI protocol for an Advanced OW checkout dive...It was a clear max depth violation and a guy died...End of story..But the exact details of what went on have never been made public..No report from PADI, no report on coroner's findings...Nothing from the cops....The instructor is still a active PADI instructor...Like I said, who knows what happened??

 

[Cacia]

Thats a real good question. Because there have been a few times I have kinda hinted to people that perhaps they just werent up to the dive...being a new drysuit diver, on a single tank, or lack of experience, or whatever.....And sometimes people thank you for your concern and dont do it...And sometimes they give you the middle finger and do it anyway... I guess it depends on the person giving the advice, and the person taking it...

You know, I should have asked that question as a new thread. I have a fundamental problem with this forum. What is the primary purpose? I do not see how it can be that we discuss hypothetical scenarios in a learning environment, much like a post morbidity and mortality hospital committee, release facts, and offer condolences to friends and family, all in one discussion. It always feels really "nonconstructive" in here because there is no clarity, at least in my mind, what the accepted objective is. As I read, I had certain questions which other astute divers voiced in analyzing the accident. Still, I certainly see Storm's point. This forum was in existence long before I happened along, but I would encourage the board to take another look at the format. I would like see an accident fact release,( that would be immediate and ongoing) a separate condolence /support thread. Perhaps after one month (or a given time period) the incident would be opened up for accident analysis where various scenarios would be acceptable to postulate as a learning tool.

On that note, I would ask that a mod move our philosophical discussion out of this thread into a new one....unrelated to this recent tragedy.

 

[caseybird]

And how do you determine their level of experience reliably? And how do you judge them? And assuming you've decided that they don't possess the necessary skills/equipment/experience to safely conduct a particular dive, and that it's your "duty" ro try to talk them out of doing the dive, how do you do so?

Tough questions all.

I have approached this situation by asking simple questions relating to my ability to do that dive, something like:" I don't think I could do that dive, do you use air? Nitrox? what would you do if you ran into OOA?" At all times I would stress my doubts about MY ability to do that dive. This takes the defensiveness out of the situation, and might inspire second thoughts by the other diver. I also might find out the other diver is perfectly confident and capable of doing a dive I'm not up for. Either way, I've tried.

Thanks Storm. Condolences to the family and friends.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

And how do you determine their level of experience reliably? And how do you judge them? And assuming you've decided that they don't possess the necessary skills/equipment/experience to safely conduct a particular dive, and that it's your "duty" ro try to talk them out of doing the dive, how do you do so?

Tough questions all.

If you care, you do what a good divemaster does.. just start casually talking to them. I was out here last week, man the current was screaming..when were you here last? That looks like a new dry suit? Do you like it? Where are you guys heading for your dive today? Do they have all new or rental gear = "probably clueless".

I have found that most divers, will at least engage you in a conversation, if you are casual and they are not jerks. In a few minutes, a good divemaster who is experienced at the particular site, can begin to get a picture of the competance of the divers....

Then, you can make a suggestion, give them a briefing on the dive, even if they didn't ask for it.. And then make it sound a little tougher than it is. If they chicken out well good.

You can suggest a modiifed dive plan etc, You can flat out say.. no body around here does this dive with that gear, you're not from around here are you?

I guess you would have to determine how strong your statements need to be based on your confidence that the people are making a very poor decision. And if they get pissed and think you are a know-it-all jerk..who cares? they're strangers. I would rather do that than be clipping a reel off to his body an hour later.

AND. I'm not trying to imply that any of the people did the wrong thing in this tragedy, I'm responding to the question above as a hypothetical question.

 

[String]

What if you leave the body and then it turns out you could have possibly saved the person by bringing him/her up? Are you supposed to diagonose the person's condition at depth despite no medical background?

If its definately dead then mark position and leave it for the authorities.

Obviously if theres any chance the person isnt dead then you err on the side of caution and effect a rescue. Common sense applies.

During the rescue things like kit etc can be cut without worrying but after the casualty has been dealt with the instructions are clear - no kit touched, no valves turned, hoses moved, buttons pressed or any interference at all.

 

[Ayisha]

But how many of us are qualified to pronounce someone dead under water?

And we know that cold water preserves life longer than warm water, even if the person has been unconscious for some time. We should try to recover and rescuscitate if at all possible.

BTW, regarding the comments on "deco obligations". In recreational diving, within NDL's, a safety stop is just that. It is recommended - NOT required. It is up to the individual to make that decision.

I guess a SMB and shore support can be beneficial if the rescuer decides that a safety stop is necessary, and there is no rescuer to surface with the victim.

 

[Divmstr223]

All I'll say is this......If I know a diver came off the boat / shore at the same time I did and I happen to find that individual during my dive with his reg out of his mouth and not breathing; #1 I'm not a doctor so I do not have an expert opinion on whether there is a chance or not, I'm bringing him to the surface, skipping my saftey stop and starting CPR ASAP......whether it's a waste of time or not, I don't care, life if precious and if it were even remotely possible to save someone, I'm going to exhaust every measure to do so......

and #2 I wasn't there, so other factors might have been involved to prevent such a rescue attempt.... but the above still applies as far as I'm concerened.

 

[String]

If theres any doubt you rescue. However in some cases there is no doubt. Example a search for a missing diver at a site whos been missing for 6hrs with a single 12l etc.

 

[Rick Inman]

You know, I should have asked that question as a new thread. I have a fundamental problem with this forum. What is the primary purpose? I do not see how it can be that we discuss hypothetical scenarios in a learning environment, much like a post morbidity and mortality hospital committee, release facts, and offer condolences to friends and family, all in one discussion. It always feels really "nonconstructive" in here because there is no clarity, at least in my mind, what the accepted objective is. As I read, I had certain questions which other astute divers voiced in analyzing the accident. Still, I certainly see Storm's point. This forum was in existence long before I happened along, but I would encourage the board to take another look at the format. I would like see an accident fact release,( that would be immediate and ongoing) a separate condolence /support thread. Perhaps after one month (or a given time period) the incident would be opened up for accident analysis where various scenarios would be acceptable to postulate as a learning tool.

On that note, I would ask that a mod move our philosophical discussion out of this thread into a new one....unrelated to this recent tragedy.

This comes up in almost every accident thread.

I recomend THIS for a good perspective on this issue.

 

[*Floater*]

The buddy said that the plan was to turn the dive at 1500 psi..On an aluminum 80, that's exactly half the tank..So on the return, if everything goes flawlessly...You get to shore with ZERO....

It only takes a few hundred psi to make a straight ascent to surface from 80 ft in open water (no overhead, no safety stops, Al80) and then you can worry about making it to the shore. I presume there was more involved here than just a possibly inadequate dive plan. Maybe the guy's equipment leaked and he wasn't monitoring his gas closely early on in the dive so it ran out way before he expected? Another possibility is some medical problem or convulsions which caused him to remove the mask and spit out the reg, which then free flowed until his tank was empty.

One of my instructors always carried an adjustable SS wrench with him. He also recommended that we do bubble checks before the dive (check each other's first stages for bubbles before descending) and also keep an eye on our buddy's equipment during the dive - he used the wrench a few times to tighten thighs up. I plan to get one myself at some point.

What did the victim's buddy say?