Faking Logbook Entries Fact or Fiction?

[Rinkopr]

Faking a log book is not a correct way of getting a dive count. I do however disagree that if someone is going to 20 or 30 feet and working on navigation, buoyancy, and breath control that it is not faking. I am working on getting my 40 required dives to allow me to officially assist the instructor in a class of 6. There are other steps that I am taking other than the dive count, but working on basic skills is not faking. How many OW or AOW or any diver for that matter ALWAYS does a quick basic skills run through at the beginning of each dive? Each time my wife and I hit the water we both do the Regulator retrieval, mask removal and clearing, and run through the steps of Emergency Swimming Accent, and Emergency Buoyant Accent.
As for loarding dive count over other people, that is more the product of testoasterone than the DM training program. I am looking ONLY to assist the instructor in both the pool and the lake we use for training, not to take a group out for a saltwater dive. Like all diving knowing your own limits, and staying within your own limits is the importaint part of the sport.
When I reach 40 dives, most will be from a lake and to a depth of only 30 feet. That is not to say that I won't go to the ocean and take a few deep dives to cover my Deep Specialty at Night while working on my Navigation.
One could argue that some could have 20 dives and be capable to start the Dm program, while others could have 500 dives and never by ready for the training or responsibility.
I can understand the desire for a high dive count, it kinda goes with the "Mine is Bigger than yours", but when I reach 40 dives, I wonder if my comfort with "basic skills" would be any less than someone who has 100 dives.

And now I will let those who have hundreds of dives blast me for my own opinion.

 

[TheRedHead]

I don't know Rinkopr, I have a hard time agreeing with your logic. A Divemaster implies a "master," and your proposed experience level doesn't match the conventional image of a divemaster.

I think the course in the original article must have been IANTD Extended Range Diver (with 100 logged dives required) because I can't find anything else that matches. If that were true, I don't see how the student could complete all the prerequisites with only 11 dives total.

 

[Fish_Whisperer]

I dive at the local pool most weekends, and I run through all sorts of skills. Donning and doffing my BC underwater, recovering and clearing my mask, buoyancy control, breath control, tossing away and recovering my reg, manually inflating my BC, ditching my weights, etc. etc. I wouldn't dream of logging any of those "dives," though.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I don't know Rinkopr, I have a hard time agreeing with your logic. A Divemaster implies a "master," and your proposed experience level doesn't match the conventional image of a divemaster.

I more or less agree. A divemaster "should be some one with a well rounded diving education and experience. Dives for the purpose of practicing skills should count as dives but they need to be put in perspective.

I think the course in the original article must have been IANTD Extended Range Diver (with 100 logged dives required) because I can't find anything else that matches. If that were true, I don't see how the student could complete all the prerequisites with only 11 dives total.

There is no IANTD extended range diver certification...or at least there wasn't the last time I reviewed IANTD standards, which wasn't that long ago, and there certainly wasn't when I was an active IANTD instructor.

There are lots of holes (which I tried to point out a few posts back) in the article and that shouldn't be so given that Michael Ange (the author) is himself a technical diving instructor. You'd think it was something out of a newspaper or something. However, I find it to be the case in most of what he writes.

I've spent too much time bringing some of those holes to light in the past (because I saw some of them as dangerous) and even invited Mr, Ange here to explain his view point but he never showed. Of course he isn't obligated too but I thought the invitation was fair given the way I was dumping on the articles.

Typical rodales.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Faking a log book is not a correct way of getting a dive count. I do however disagree that if someone is going to 20 or 30 feet and working on navigation, buoyancy, and breath control that it is not faking. I am working on getting my 40 required dives to allow me to officially assist the instructor in a class of 6. There are other steps that I am taking other than the dive count, but working on basic skills is not faking. How many OW or AOW or any diver for that matter ALWAYS does a quick basic skills run through at the beginning of each dive? Each time my wife and I hit the water we both do the Regulator retrieval, mask removal and clearing, and run through the steps of Emergency Swimming Accent, and Emergency Buoyant Accent.
As for loarding dive count over other people, that is more the product of testoasterone than the DM training program. I am looking ONLY to assist the instructor in both the pool and the lake we use for training, not to take a group out for a saltwater dive. Like all diving knowing your own limits, and staying within your own limits is the importaint part of the sport.
When I reach 40 dives, most will be from a lake and to a depth of only 30 feet. That is not to say that I won't go to the ocean and take a few deep dives to cover my Deep Specialty at Night while working on my Navigation.
One could argue that some could have 20 dives and be capable to start the Dm program, while others could have 500 dives and never by ready for the training or responsibility.
I can understand the desire for a high dive count, it kinda goes with the "Mine is Bigger than yours", but when I reach 40 dives, I wonder if my comfort with "basic skills" would be any less than someone who has 100 dives.

And now I will let those who have hundreds of dives blast me for my own opinion.

Well, I sure don't want to blast you and good on you for practicing. The number of dives alone does not reliably tell hoe good a diver is or how much he learned on those dives. Some dives are far more educational that others.

Still, as a generality, I really have to say that 40 dives, especially if they're mostly skill practice dives, doesn't put one in a very good position to be assisting in training.

I'm not saying this because I have more dives than you. i'm saying it because I spent some years as an active instructor and I know that I want the assistants to be extra eyes and hands for me. Until they gain some real experience, they really are just some one else that I have to watch.

Are you in a DM training program?

 

[TheRedHead]

EDIT: It's TDI Extended Range
from the TDI site:

Extended Range
This course provides the training and experience required to competently utilize air for dives up to 180 fsw/55msw that require staged decompression, utilizing nitrox mixtures and oxygen during decompression.

AND

Here's a description of "Extended Range" diver:

The name sums it up, extend yourself in many ways including: depth / equipment / investment / time / excitement / opportunities... This course provides training and experiences required to competently utilize air for dives up to 180 fsw that require staged decompression, utilizing nitrox or oxygen mixtures for decompression. This is an extensive course covering: physics, physiology, decompression options, equipment considerations, dive tables, planning, emergencies, more. Must be confident in water with doubles, and requires extensive equipment investment. Be prepared-the deeper you go, the deeper you invest in your life.

Course Cost: $999

Includes:

Two evenings instruction
Three days of diving Lk. Wazee ( 4 - 6 open water dives )
Certification fee upon completion of course
Prerequisites:

Advanced EANx / Decompression Procedures
Minimum age 18
Have a minimum of 100 logged dives of which 25 must be deeper than 100 fsw
One classroom session, and one equipment prep. session at GUDC, remaining classroom session on site. Pre-study workbook required. First classroom is administrative, waivers, & equipment prep., remaining classroom on site. Max 4 students , Min. 2 students per course. Required Text: TDI Extended Range, IANTD Technical Encyclopedia, IANTD *Accelerated Air Table (waterproof deco table -same as Deco procedures )

From:

http://www.goingunder.net/techdvr-exrange.htm

 

[MoonWrasse]

I more or less agree. A divemaster "should be some one with a well rounded diving education and experience. Dives for the purpose of practicing skills should count as dives but they need to be put in perspective.
/QUOTE]

Well, I made a similar argument during a SI recently - that 60 dives to become a DM or 100 to become an instructor seemed too few IMO. More so if all the dives were at one spot.

Unfortunately, I think this is a product of the modern certifying agencies. It renders the credentials as meaningless in themselves, just like dive count. I've heard shops are becomming skeptical of DM/instructor cerifications from elsewhere, so that they "test" any incomming job applicants before hiring.

 

[Toadie]

I think this discussion also warrants "what constitutues a dive?"

I remember when I did my OW test I had logged something like 10 dives just because of the various times we went from 15 ft to the top to talk, drill etc.

To me, a dive is a FULL DIVE... deep down you know if it's a dive or not. I don't count ANY dives I do as a DM that are for drills or training when I'm up and down.

If I'm underwater for 30 minutes or so with students, I'll count that but I draw the line and little dives.

That's just me though, I know people who count everything from dives to putting their head underwater. Maybe I need to get some spahgetti sauce?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Here's a description of "Extended Range" diver:

The name sums it up, extend yourself in many ways including: depth / equipment / investment / time / excitement / opportunities... This course provides training and experiences required to competently utilize air for dives up to 180 fsw that require staged decompression, utilizing nitrox or oxygen mixtures for decompression. This is an extensive course covering: physics, physiology, decompression options, equipment considerations, dive tables, planning, emergencies, more. Must be confident in water with doubles, and requires extensive equipment investment. Be prepared-the deeper you go, the deeper you invest in your life.

Course Cost: $999

Includes:

Two evenings instruction
Three days of diving Lk. Wazee ( 4 - 6 open water dives )
Certification fee upon completion of course
Prerequisites:

Advanced EANx / Decompression Procedures
Minimum age 18
Have a minimum of 100 logged dives of which 25 must be deeper than 100 fsw
One classroom session, and one equipment prep. session at GUDC, remaining classroom session on site. Pre-study workbook required. First classroom is administrative, waivers, & equipment prep., remaining classroom on site. Max 4 students , Min. 2 students per course. Required Text: TDI Extended Range, IANTD Technical Encyclopedia, IANTD *Accelerated Air Table (waterproof deco table -same as Deco procedures )

From:

http://www.goingunder.net/techdvr-exrange.htm

I just checked the IANTD standards at IANTD.com. there is no such class. It must be a TDI class even though the dive center that you quoted appears to use an IANTD text. Deco procedures is also a TDI class.

The IANTD course "Technical diver" only permits diving to 170 ft on air. Beyonf the there is normoxic trimix and trimix. Now days it's common to combine the tech diver course with niormoxic trimix which eliminates the need to EVER do any deep diving on air.

In fact with the IANTD recreational trimix classes and the combinations that are permitted a student can go all the way through without out even going to 130 ft on air.

Air is for tires and maybe some diving but it sucks for deep diving as is evident by the fact that TDI students are apparantly going unconsious at 160 ft...11 dives or 11,000 no matter.

 

[MoonWrasse]

I think this discussion also warrants "what constitutues a dive?"

I remember when I did my OW test I had logged something like 10 dives just because of the various times we went from 15 ft to the top to talk, drill etc.

To me, a dive is a FULL DIVE... deep down you know if it's a dive or not. I don't count ANY dives I do as a DM that are for drills or training when I'm up and down.

If I'm underwater for 30 minutes or so with students, I'll count that but I draw the line and little dives.

That's just me though, I know people who count everything from dives to putting their head underwater. Maybe I need to get some spahgetti sauce?

Maybe we should ask Bill Clinton what a "dive"is