Fail! Weekend Certify-

[zaberman1]

One of the very first things that I asked (after being yelled at) when I was training to become an instructor was, what happens when student X is on the line going down and student Y is 5 ft above him with ear problems? Which one do I tend to?

The answer, which I came to understand and give to my DM candidates, was: Why would that ever be the case? You train as a group, you dive as a group, no exceptions. I remind my students that EVERYONE fails the dive if we don't act like a group.

Students need to be supervised. Of course, there are some situations in which you may leave a student behind for a second on the surface (CESA) but you should always be able to see/supervise them. One of the ways I prevent students from being left behind like that is to divide CESA up among the divers and perform CESA while ascending on Dive 2 with one student and everyone else makes the normal ascent with the DM. New student on Dive 3, etc. I will start a thread in the instructor forum specifically about this...

I am sorry about your experience and it certainly sounds like poor customer service. I would like to hear the instructors/shops side to get a more holistic account.

 

[idocsteve]

One of the very first things that I asked (after being yelled at) when I was training to become an instructor was, what happens when student X is on the line going down and student Y is 5 ft above him with ear problems? Which one do I tend to?

The answer, which I came to understand and give to my DM candidates, was: Why would that ever be the case? You train as a group, you dive as a group, no exceptions. I remind my students that EVERYONE fails the dive if we don't act like a group.

What would you do if you instructed the entire group to descend and two divers didn't follow the rest of the group either because they didn't hear you, or they misunderstood, or they were frightened, or their attention was diverted elsewhere?

 

[zaberman1]

What would you do if you instructed the entire group to descend and two divers didn't follow the rest of the group either because they didn't hear you, or they misunderstood, or they were frightened, or their attention was diverted elsewhere?

Good question.

I would have briefed about being together and descending together before we got in the water to prevent such a situation.

If the situation did arise, which it inevitably does, I would have my DM tend to them. In rough conditions like the OP described, I wouldn't find it acceptable to dive in a big group without a DM.

Suppose I didn't have a DM. I wouldn't take more than 4 students in that area (just based on how it was described). That way, the group is close and its easy to see who is missing. A problem at the surface can be settled by having everyone arrest their descent and ascend. Fix the problem, everyone goes down.

I am very cautious with new divers, especially if it is their first dive, so they get the hang of everything. AWARENESS is critical and should be emphasized ad nauseam.

I wonder how their pool session went?

Training for the OW begins on Day 1 and should really stress the above points.

 

[zaberman1]

And to add:

I do think there is SOME shared blame but is it really the fault of the OP? I think the instructors response and an account of how the course was run might be of use.

I know the OP is angry and might be exaggerating on certain points, however, I can't truly pass judgement unless I hear both sides of the story.

The OP should certainly complain to the shop/respective agency and the shop should be informed of this thread.

 

[GI0Ria]

Maybe there was a miscommunication and he wanted you to follow him down. Perhaps he had responsibilities to both you and your son AND the divers on the bottom and he couldn't be in two places at once.

I am not an instructor but on the face of it, if caught between students on the surface and students at the bottom I think I know where I'd be. Especially if I expected the students on the surface to follow me down.

And you said at one point that you WERE being watched from below because an instructor surfaced to critique your finning technique, isn't that right?

No doubt that there were some errors made on the part of the dive shop here, in regard to the weather conditions...it sounds like new divers should not have been in the water unless more direct and personal supervision was available...but the rest of it is somewhat open to speculation; from what I get, you had a bad experience and you're venting. There's some shared blame here due to some unpreparedness, failure to follow instructions, and poor communication between instructor and students.

You might want to read the full postings b4 you put in thoughts.. because this was covered many times over.

There were diff. subgroups going out... They ALL had their own instructors with them. They were all out in the water b4 me, my son and the Dive Master (our buddy) entered the water. We were the last subgroup. Approximately 1/4 to 1/2 way to the float I was beginning to be separated from my son and the dive master.. they were swimming ahead of me. I'm not going over and over what has been discussed. Really you should read the entire postings.

They continued to progress further away from me, I was turning and site seeing most likely at some point and turned back to find i was separated.. NEVERTHELESS--- I ended up being left.

I was pushed to hurry, instead of being waited for.

Specifically on the topic of the dive master going underwater and looking at me kick? This is details.. in the midst of being told kick kick kick faster faster faster.. hurry hurry hurry..do long continuous hip kicks etc... then he was dipping below the water, by the float. I wondered why he would disappear.. i remember doing 360s wondering where he disappeared to. He popped up one time(note, he wasn't next to me) and I asked him 'Are you under there watching me kick'? He said yes, I said SEE I'M Kicking! I've been kicking this entire time! He said but those are little kicks, I said because NOW I'm doing what I feel is less tiring.
We had a little more convo then he left both me and my son at the top of the water--- I was still swimming! That is it.. But you know what I find interesting is posters questioning certain aspects of this.

As if it's personal??

Anyone in the diving world should be 'IF this did happen this shouldn't'
What would be the point to badgering me? Because look I can ask them to show themselves and 'give their sides' Because I have seen them in this post posting being 99.99% positive about that, (or someone they have posting for them) But I'm MOST positive it wouldn't be to their benefit. To many witnesses to the facts here. I have expressed what I have--- not to place blame.

Some posters seem to want me to engage in a back n forth--why did u do this or that.. ??
Who cares.. I am not a cert.diver! I trusted them, they left me, I got hurt. I was misinformed.
this thread is here for reasons such as this, and my ultimate point was that
experiences leads to people making more aware decisions on their own behalf. As well I was interested in the feedback.
That is all
ASK and get everything documented... ASk ask ask.. better yet try and get personal reference from someone u know to a shop-first, then ask ask ask..

p.s. You get left in the ocean on ur first dive and then you are very welcome to go on a thread and talk about the nice critiques u got on ur fin kicks - which you had time to practice with your alone time---in the ocean--- first dive-- ok.. that is very strange to even make a comment such as that.
Who says something like that.

 

[idocsteve]

You might want to read the full postings b4 you put in thoughts.. because this was covered many times over.

I read every post on this thread before responding.

I was pushed to hurry, instead of being waited for.

I understand and accept that you were in poor weather conditions and that the instructor probably exercised poor judgement in allowing the dive to take place, and that they were not very patient with you.

This is details.. in the midst of being told kick kick kick faster faster faster.. hurry hurry hurry..do long continuous hip kicks etc... then he was dipping below the water, by the float. I wondered why he would disappear.. i remember doing 360s wondering where he disappeared to. He popped up one time(note, he wasn't next to me) and I asked him 'Are you under there watching me kick'? He said yes,

^^ You remember the events in a particular way, that does not mean you are recalling them accurately. There was a lot going on, you were stressed, and by analyzing what you say and how you say it, it's possible to determine a bit more clearly what exactly transpired here.

Sounds to me like the instructor was watching you, and when you were by the float he was close enough for the two of you to have quite a bit of conversation.

But you know what I find interesting is posters questioning certain aspects of this.

As if it's personal??

I don't think anyone who has posted on this thread is trying to do anything other than help you figure out what happened, how to avoid it next time, and to provide you with something positive and useful to come away with from the entire ordeal.

 

[TSandM]

GIOria, you will learn about bulletin boards. Never will you post an experience and have everybody agree with you about what happened or who should have done what differently. The key to remaining and enjoying being on the board and sharing things on it is not to take any of it personally. Remember that perhaps NONE of the people responding to your post know you. Some of them may know your dive shop, and some of them CERTAINLY know people from dive shops that run classes in Monterey. Some are instructors who have had absent-minded students who haven't read instructions and then don't know what to do or what to have with them. Some are probably shop owners who have had apoplectic customers complaining about things that didn't happen, or didn't happen that way, or are standard practice that the customer simply didn't like.

Everybody brings his or her answer from his own point of view, and if you read them nonjudgmentally, you can perhaps learn a fair bit. Getting defensive and a bit shrill, however, always works to diminish someone's credibility

It is a very strong condemnation of instructional staff, if a student on their first time in open water in dive gear was left unsupervised. I think all of us think that should never happen. So asking questions to make sure it is really clear that a true abandonment occurred is something I think is very reasonable. Your picture in your mind of what happened and how it happened is clear, but the word picture you have painted isn't necessarily clear to all of us.

But at this point, probably the most constructive thing to do is to regard what you are going to do with respect to finishing your certification. We can't change what happened last weekend. But you have to decide whether you want to continue with this shop, and if so, whether there is anything you can do to affect changes that would make you feel better about them and your education. Or, in the alternative, you have to decide if you want to change shops, and if so, to whom and where and why. THAT is a positive direction for this thread to go.

 

[GI0Ria]

Good question.

I would have briefed about being together and descending together before we got in the water to prevent such a situation.

If the situation did arise, which it inevitably does, I would have my DM tend to them. In rough conditions like the OP described, I wouldn't find it acceptable to dive in a big group without a DM.

Suppose I didn't have a DM. I wouldn't take more than 4 students in that area (just based on how it was described). That way, the group is close and its easy to see who is missing. A problem at the surface can be settled by having everyone arrest their descent and ascend. Fix the problem, everyone goes down.

I am very cautious with new divers, especially if it is their first dive, so they get the hang of everything. AWARENESS is critical and should be emphasized ad nauseam.

I wonder how their pool session went?

Training for the OW begins on Day 1 and should really stress the above points.

The dive master was our buddy he is the one who left us BTW..

also, people are chiming in without reading this full thread with some strong opinions- not you necessarily, but I'm using this space ok sorry ..

I'm not angry! I'm disappointed- sad a little- I liked the other people in my group. Hurt they treated me and my son like that.
It is so far from angry.. A few little issues along the way have struck a nerve and fueled me and I got mad- but that was mainly isolated conversations where discussions were about what happened.

ya all whoever if you are friends of the dive shop should probably just stop, is my suggestion, because I could come out with more then what I have.

Such as this,

For example. when we were in Monterey, after the 2nd time we got left behind, but this was on a different dive (the 2nd dive), my son got real sick. He was nervous, hungry- and refused to go back in. He kept repeating to me over and over I can't believe they left us up there. I told him SEE how it feels to be left?? And I was with you, you weren't alone. He was a mess- when we were on top of the water everybody went down without us- for about 5 mins. I had to hear my son say, they left us, I can't see them.. we are lost.. That was AT the wall at BW.
So needless to say after that dive he was not going back in, and I had to do a check on all our gear make sure it was all with us. We left came back the next day and he couldn't find his gloves. The first dive I didn't make it all the way into the water, he never got in.. this is how far apart we were in the water from each other, a perfect example, he was still on the shore I was in the waves trying to put on my fins.

I fell I was done for the day, when we got back up top my son didn't want to go in. He was worried actually, he said he didnt feel safe. However he was pressured to go in. I told him though, he shouldn't let my accident stop him, but it was more than that for him..

Anyways, he didn't have gloves, he still couldn't locate his, apparently he was going to borrow when we were all going in b4.
But I went up to one of them and he said have him use yours. ??? Mine are small.. but my son tried to get them on.. he said he couldn't move his hands.. he said I don't want to go in the water no more, I'm going to go tell him these don't fit..

My son comes back with these other gloves.. He said he got them given to him. I said ok.
Meanwhile he goes out to dive, and I was talking to another person in the group about his missing gloves and they say OH we found those yesterday.. and they give them back to me.

ok.. gear check-in...

They tried charging me for the gloves, apparently he opened some gloves handed them to my son, and was going to charge me.. it's not like we were in different cities we were basically next to each other, (me and the person who handed him the gloves) we knew my sons gloves would surface there.

How inappropriate is it for an adult to open new gloves and hand them to a kid and tell them here these are yours. Then 4 days later tell the parent oh you know you bought new gloves right?

yeah.. whoever wants to push this further - i'd happily oblige..

 

[GI0Ria]

GIOria, you will learn about bulletin boards. Never will you post an experience and have everybody agree with you about what happened or who should have done what differently. The key to remaining and enjoying being on the board and sharing things on it is not to take any of it personally. Remember that perhaps NONE of the people responding to your post know you. Some of them may know your dive shop, and some of them CERTAINLY know people from dive shops that run classes in Monterey. Some are instructors who have had absent-minded students who haven't read instructions and then don't know what to do or what to have with them. Some are probably shop owners who have had apoplectic customers complaining about things that didn't happen, or didn't happen that way, or are standard practice that the customer simply didn't like.

Everybody brings his or her answer from his own point of view, and if you read them nonjudgmentally, you can perhaps learn a fair bit. Getting defensive and a bit shrill, however, always works to diminish someone's credibility

It is a very strong condemnation of instructional staff, if a student on their first time in open water in dive gear was left unsupervised. I think all of us think that should never happen. So asking questions to make sure it is really clear that a true abandonment occurred is something I think is very reasonable. Your picture in your mind of what happened and how it happened is clear, but the word picture you have painted isn't necessarily clear to all of us.

But at this point, probably the most constructive thing to do is to regard what you are going to do with respect to finishing your certification. We can't change what happened last weekend. But you have to decide whether you want to continue with this shop, and if so, whether there is anything you can do to affect changes that would make you feel better about them and your education. Or, in the alternative, you have to decide if you want to change shops, and if so, to whom and where and why. THAT is a positive direction for this thread to go.

Im not finishing there,
I'm going to get a referral? or I'm not sure about all my options yet.. I'm working that out..

I won't go back there.

 

[idocsteve]

my son got real sick. He was nervous, hungry- and refused to go back in. He kept repeating to me over and over I can't believe they left us up there. I told him SEE how it feels to be left??

I don't understand why you would say to your son "SEE how it feels to be left". That only makes a bad situation worse, and you're not acting like a supportive parent by saying that. It would only increase his anxiety.

We left came back the next day and he couldn't find his gloves.

He lost his gloves. This is the fault of the dive instructor too?

They tried charging me for the gloves, apparently he opened some gloves handed them to my son, and was going to charge me.. it's not like we were in different cities we were basically next to each other, (me and the person who handed him the gloves) we knew my sons gloves would surface there.

Your son lost his gloves, the dive Op was going to sell him a new pair to replace the ones he lost. I'm not seeing anything wrong with that. Gear costs money to replace. It's not the first piece of dive gear you are going to ever lose.

this is how far apart we were in the water from each other, a perfect example, he was still on the shore I was in the waves trying to put on my fins.

You two were completely separated, he was on shore and you were in the water messing with your fins. This is the instructors fault too? You never considered that you ought to um...wait for one another before entering the water together?