Exactly how deep is "Deep Air?"

What does Deep Air mean to you (in regard to narcosis)?


  • Total voters
    196

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To understand something, you must first be willing to recognize that there might be valid reasons for it. Given that you do not, no amount of explanation will help you understand.

I don't advocate it ... not below certain limits. But I understand it ... partly because I dive in an environment where it's easy for recreational divers to get well below 100 fsw, particularly on some of the more popular dive sites.

I think this is the crux of the problem, you can and do learn these skills in a tech class, and besides going to 130 ft, the recreational agencys/classes don't teach to go deeper. So to go deeper than 130 on air you must take a class to be within standards, now the question is will you decide to take a class such as Tech Deep? which I still havent seen anyone post how this class teaches you to mitigate or deal with narcosis, or will you take a Trimix class?

Going below a 100 fsw END is the least of my concerns here ... watching relatively new divers do it in low vis conditions, on small tanks, with not a bloody clue of any gas management beyond "end the dive with 500 psi" is a greater concern to me than whether or not they use air or trimix.

I agree, there are a host of problems with diving deep other than narcosis, and it is scary to see untrained divers doing so, but again if you're taking a tech class to learn how to do deeper or longer dives, why not take a trimix course with it, or a class that includes trimix in it? (or just don't dive deep).

I understand where you're coming from ... you guys dive in caves ... you only understand the rules as they apply to caves. Believe it or not ... you're less than 1% of all the divers out there who'll make dives below 100 fsw. Almost all of those other divers will never have the training, skills, or perspective you guys have. They won't ever dive in your environment ... and most of them will never understand why you believe what they do is a big deal.

Contrary to popular belief we cave divers sometimes dive in the ocean as well.

Expressing yourselves the way you do won't help them understand your perspective either ... it's an impasse ... and frankly, there's way more important reasons why people get themselves into accidents that have nothing to do with what gas they're breathing.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I agree, but this thread/discussion has been dealing with deep air, not the whole other host of ways people can get themselves into problems.
 
I told myself I wouldn't get into this thread. I've participated in enough of them. But alas, I can't resist.

My $.02:

1. Pressure increases with depth.
2. There are a number of quantifiable negative effects associated with breathing gases as hyperbaric pressure.
3. We want to dive.
4. We need to breathe.
5. We need a certain level (pressure) of oxygen to sustain life and consciousness.

1+2 = Diving is risky.
3 = We're willing to take that risk.
4+5 = There is only so much one can do WRT adjusting the oxygen content in the breathing gas. As the pressure (depth) increases, the oxygen content can be reduced, but only to a point.

6. We do not need any level of nitrogen to sustain life and consciousness.
7. Replacing any or all nitrogen with helium can curb at least one of the negative effects from "1."

6+7 = Diving Trimix or Heliox is a viable way to reduce the total risk factor of a dive, all else being equal.


Are there other risks? Absolutely. Is there a way to mitigate them as well (all else being equal)? Not that I know of. If you want to experience the full gamut of risk, go ahead. While my wife supports my diving, I know she worries. I'm going to personally do everything I can to reduce the risk involved in seeing the sites I want to see. That includes keeping a planned maximum END of about 100 feet in harsh conditions, and about 130 feet in easy conditions. I owe her that much.

Trimix is independent of deep air (if the END is low enough), so it hasn't had an effect on deep air. Was that what you were asking?

No, he was questioning your interpretation of statistics by presenting something that's technically correct (the total percentage of deaths below 100 feet that occurred on air has decreased since the advent of helium mixes) but irrelevant.
 
I told myself I wouldn't get into this thread. I've participated in enough of them. But alas, I can't resist.
You're like Michael Corleone in Godfather III. Loosely quoting, "I want to go clean but they drag me back down again..."

I myself am trying to keep my participation at a moderate level. Gotta say that I was tempted several times to write something but then Bob comes in and expresses my sentiment better than what I could've.

My $.02:

1. Pressure increases with depth.
2. There are a number of quantifiable negative effects associated with breathing gases as hyperbaric pressure.
3. We want to dive.
4. We need to breathe.
5. We need a certain level (pressure) of oxygen to sustain life and consciousness.

1+2 = Diving is risky.
3 = We're willing to take that risk.
4+5 = There is only so much one can do WRT adjusting the oxygen content in the breathing gas. As the pressure (depth) increases, the oxygen content can be reduced, but only to a point.

6. We do not need any level of nitrogen to sustain life and consciousness.
7. Replacing any or all nitrogen with helium can curb at least one of the negative effects from "1."

6+7 = Diving Trimix or Heliox is a viable way to reduce the total risk factor of a dive, all else being equal.
I don't think anybody will disagree with this.
 
You're like Michael Corleone in Godfather III. Loosely quoting, "I want to go clean but they drag me back down again..."

haha... I was just saying that (well: "they pull me back in") when I came back into the office after my lunchtime swim.

I don't think anybody will disagree with this.

Problem with these threads is that everyone agrees in principle, but disagrees about specifics. John tried to make a poll to figure out the spread of that specific lynch pin (how deep is too deep), but it predictably degenerated into the same people saying the same things and not really disagreeing with eachother but fighting nonetheless.

Sum total, I wrote that bit intending that everyone would agree with it :wink:.
 
haha... I was just saying that (well: "they pull me back in") when I came back into the office after my lunchtime swim.



Problem with these threads is that everyone agrees in principle, but disagrees about specifics. John tried to make a poll to figure out the spread of that specific lynch pin (how deep is too deep), but it predictably degenerated into the same people saying the same things and not really disagreeing with eachother but fighting nonetheless.

Sum total, I wrote that bit intending that everyone would agree with it :wink:.

I disagree!! :wink: JK
 
Accident Analysis for cave divers began after the Florida legislature came very close to prohibiting diving in caves, springs and sinkholes after 24 fatalities were recorded during the 1974 - 1975 diving season. This was discovered to be related to untrained or improperly trained divers placing themselves in the very dangerous situation of diving in caverns and caves.

Comparing this to open water deep air diving, we'd have to look at the number of fatalities that result from untrained or improperly trained divers pursuing deep air diving activities. How many were trained? How many exceeded the limits of their training, i.e., diving air at the extended range level when they are certified for advanced nitrox and decompression procedures?

In 1977, Sheck Exley published Basic Cave Diving: A Blueprint for Survival in which he listed the known causes for the majority of cave diving accidents. According to Sheck the main reasons that divers died in caves was:

1) Failure to run a continuous guideline to open water
2) Failure to reserve at least 2/3 of the gas supply for exit
3) Diving deep in caves

"Deep" was defined as greater than 130 feet on air.

By 1984, Wes Skiles added:

4) Failure to be trained or exceeding the limits of one's training
5) Failure to carry at least 3 lights

By the 1990's, there was a huge drop in the number of open water divers dying in caves. This was the result of the efforts of the cave diving community to raise awareness of the need for training. The NACD, the NSS-CDS and landowners (both public and private) began to make sure that divers entering caves had the proper certifications and qualifications.

Based upon the cave diving rules for accident analysis, to study the safety margins for deep air diving based upon this blueprint, we would have to determine the role that equipment has played in deep air diving safety. Is something missing? Line and lights are necessary for safe cave diving. What equipment might make deep air diving safer? How many deep air depths were related to lack of proper gas management?

What depth on air is really "deep" to the point that it would contribute to an equal proportion of accidents that cave divers experienced deeper than 130 feet? Is it 130 feet? 150 feet? Deeper? Shallower? Since the cave community has studied cave diving accidents the open water community can either adopt the cave community's standards for safety, study deep diving and wreck diving deaths the same way cave deaths have been studied to create rules of accident analysis for deep diving and wreck diving, or take no action if the number of accidents is considered to be within acceptable numbers of risk and loss.

I would think that if we took any action against deep air training to establish limits of deep air training, it should somehow tie into the accident statistics of deep cave divers exceeding the 130 foot maximum recommended air depth in caves. Caves are different than open water and the complexity of navigating caves when facing narcosis may create a more conservative deep air limit than would be needed by open water divers.

The DIR community has chosen to take the cave diver's saying of, "Every dive is a cave dive," and apply that to all their diving needs whether in caves, in wrecks, or in open water. What must be kept in mind is that the philosophy was spawned based upon cave diving needs and then equally applied to all environments. Is it possible that cave diving limitations and DIR limitations may be too prejudiced against air or advanced nitrox diving in open water? I don't think the diving community has adequately explored deep air diving safety as equipment, training, and personal diving standards have improved. It could very well be that both cave and open water communities should scale back their air depth to 100 feet or less, but it could also go the other way and deep diving accident analysis may extend the range of air dives even deeper than our own fears, prejudices, and mythologies.

By the late 1990's to the present day, the number of trained cave divers dying in caves is increasing. According to Jeff Bozanic who is continuing the study of accident analysis, data on cave fatalities has shown that trained cave divers made up less than 10% of deaths until 1985. By 1995, trained cave divers amounted to nearly 40% of deaths. By 2008, cave divers made up 50% of all cave diving fatalities.

What is causing this?

Jeff Bozanic has added to the Rules of Accident Analysis (2008):

6) Inappropriate gas mixtures or failure to properly analyze gases

7) New technology allows divers to go deeper, farther, sooner in their cave diving careers and some cave divers believe the decreasing standards of recreational diver and recreational instructor training are contributing to lesser divers employing greater technology to dive beyond their physical and mental abilities and experience level (PSAI Cave Diving: Safe and Smart page 141).

8) Medical problems associated with an aging active diving population and a younger diving population that is less physical fit and less healthy

9) Poor equipment care and maintenance

10) Solo diving

11) Poor skill maintenance as many more cave divers are "vacation" cave divers and may not adequately keep up their abilities to do the type of diving they jump right back into when cave diving.

How many of these new rules of cave diving accident analysis can we apply to deep air diving? In the PSAI cave manual, the question is posed, "How deep is too deep?" The answer is that is determined by each individual's training, experience, and comfort zone.

Since the average diver of today is often more poorly trained during recreational diver training, has been less physically challenged as a diver, is less physically fit, and is more reliant upon technology to replace physical adaptation to the environment, deep air training is more likely to be scaled back in modern studies as it would be less safe for today's diver than those divers trained 30 or more years ago.

Added to which, the comfort zone for deep diving has been reduced. The Mount-Milner Survey which tested the psychological - physical relationship of deep air divers discovered that one's mental attitude toward narcosis played a significant role in performance at depth. The average diver of today is more likely to fear narcosis and to allow that fear to decrease performance during air dives.

The "macho" divers of the past relied upon themselves. The also were active, ate real food grown by actual farmers, and had a can-do spirit.

The "smarter" divers of today rely upon information. They are less active, eat genetically manufactured food-like substitutes, and have a can't-do spirit forged by too many legalities and having to trade common sense for computer sense. "I'd love to do that for you, but I can't because the computer won't let me ..."

As deep divers, especially those who still need to utilize air where helium doesn't exist, we need to rethink and reexamine deep diving. What can we learn from the macho generation that will bring back a different less cynical spirit to the sport? What can we learn from the information we have today that will make diving air at depth safer and what can we do with our technology to increase safety? Is trimix, rebreathers, and scooters the only answer or are we missing something?

I think just as the last nail is about to be driven into the coffin of deep air, economics may find the nails being clawed out.
 
PfcAJ: "...there isn't a good reason to dive deep air (END greater than 100')."

This is but one example. All you have to do is read his historic posts saying the same thing.

The main difference between our views is that I support his right to not dive past an END of 100'. Hell he has the right to not dive at all. Where I have a problem is where a non-instructor with limited experience gets off by telling all instructors that teach Deep Air in accordance with their agency policies that they are irresponsible for doing so. That's bull****!
I have a problem with someone telling me that something that we have done since 1952 with 100% safety is wrong. I'd say that with that sort of track record the onus is on him to prove that he's not just over-reacting to potential risks that clearly he simply does not understand.
 
Our tech training is to 4.5 ATA ppN2 max, and also to 165 fsw max (which gets just a bit weird since we're not certified to use helium - making ppO2 = 1.5 ATA at 6 ATA total). Now that ought to really bubble things upo a bit.

Our inital 'recreational' nitrox training was to 4.0 ATA ppN2 max.

Like Thal, we're still here . . .
 
Problem with these threads is that everyone agrees in principle, but disagrees about specifics. John tried to make a poll to figure out the spread of that specific lynch pin (how deep is too deep), but it predictably degenerated into the same people saying the same things and not really disagreeing with eachother but fighting nonetheless.

Problem is that narcosis is so dependent on a whole buch of variables, physiologically as well as physically, that you can't rationally draw a conclusion that above a certain END is "safe" and below that END is "unsafe". Those who do are adopting an arbitrary limit that works FOR THEM ... but isn't necessarily valid for someone else.

Therein lies the problem with the whole premise of the poll ... there isn't a specific limit that anyone can point to and say would be right for everyone else. It's really going to boil down to the individual and the circumstances of the dive.

Like a lot of things involving diving ... the only valid answer is "it depends" ... which is why the most important skills any diver can develop are awareness and good judgment.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I have a problem with someone telling me that something that we have done since 1952 with 100% safety is wrong. I'd say that with that sort of track record the onus is on him to prove that he's not just over-reacting to potential risks that clearly he simply does not understand.

I agree. It seems that some people like to believe what they read; others believe what they have come to know through personal experience. It's funny that some "authorities" talk the talk without ever having walked the walk.
 
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