Exactly how deep is "Deep Air?"

[Teamcasa]

....With that in mind, what is the max depth that training should occur/certify someone on with air?

I'd say anything deeper than 100' in training should require special focus on the effects of Narcosis on that diver, that day. In addition, the general ability of the diver should be taken into account. I've seen many a OW diver going for their AOW flopping around at 80' and headed for +100' depths.

Deep water is dangerous, no matter the training, skill level or gear configuration.
A divers training and experience mitigate the danger but none the less, the danger still lives down there just waiting for the hapless diver to make a mistake.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I seem to remember a dope on a rope class that someone mentioned where they went down a line and then came back up doing stops along the way. That's all that is coming to mind, and if that's the training well...

On a tangent, there was a death recently (a few weeks or a month ago maybe?) where a student was taking a PADI DSAT Tec Deep class at Oronogo a quarry in the mid west I believe. His computer showed he had been at 179 during the class, I believe it was said that when he was seen on the surface that he was tangled in line from a lift bag deployment, of course we can't know for sure if deep air played a factor in that... but one only wonders. This at a place that's known for people diving deep air (one of which clearly doesn't know how to even plan rock bottom gas as evidenced in another recent thread, and he's diving to depths of ~180 ). His instructor came up bent.

Another fatality in Eagles Nest not too long ago, where the END on the gas they were diving was CONSIDERABLY deep.

I'm not sure what your point is ... the majority of scuba deaths and injuries in my area occur at depths considerably less than 100 fsw. One recent guy died getting out of the water (heart attack).

Anecdotal "evidence" doesn't really prove anything, since it's so selective ... or more accurately, you can select it to prove anything you wish it to.

FWIW - most "deep" accidents occur as a result of decisions that were made long before the divers ever got in the water. Their narcosis only contributes to a chain of events that began long before END ever became an issue.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

I'm not sure what your point is ... the majority of scuba deaths and injuries in my area occur at depths considerably less than 100 fsw. One recent guy died getting out of the water (heart attack).

Anecdotal "evidence" doesn't really prove anything, since it's so selective ... or more accurately, you can select it to prove anything you wish it to.

FWIW - most "deep" accidents occur as a result of decisions that were made long before the divers ever got in the water. Their narcosis only contributes to a chain of events that began long before END ever became an issue.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Agreed, depth itself doesn't kill, the question is (and you can't really prove it) did depth and narcosis contribute. In this case I'm guessing it probably did, but of course I can't prove it.

By the way, I think air(nitrox) should be taught up to 100 feet, and not any deeper.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Agreed, depth itself doesn't kill, the question is (and you can't really prove it) did depth and narcosis contribute. In this case I'm guessing it probably did, but of course I can't prove it.

Ask yourself this ... in the examples you provided in your previous reply ... did those circumstances give you a reason to question the judgment of the divers involved? Did the circumstances seem to you to be prudent ones? Or did those divers put themselves in situations that they weren't prepared to deal with ... EVEN IF THEY HAD BEEN BREATHING TRIMIX?

I don't doubt that narcosis made it more difficult for them to get themselves out of a bad situation. But the accident occurred because they made decisions that put them into a position for the accident to occur in the first place. They weren't narced when they made those decisions ... for the most part, they weren't even in the water yet.

By the way, I think air should be taught to 100 feet.

I think it should be taught to a max depth of 120 feet ... and my reasons have to do with the environment I primarily dive and teach in ... just as your reasons do yours.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[LiteHedded]

ascii facepalm. time to lock this.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

ascii facepalm. time to lock this.

Why?

If y'all want to only talk about your agency's perspective, the DIR forum is just a bit south of here. I promise I won't advocate a 120 END in that place.

But please ... DON'T come into an open forum and suggest that we "lock" a thread simply because it doesn't agree with what your agency teaches ... that's pretty damn arrogant.

... Bob (Grateful DIver)

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

Why?

If y'all want to only talk about your agency's perspective, the DIR forum is just a bit south of here. I promise I won't advocate a 120 END in that place.

But please ... DON'T come into an open forum and suggest that we "lock" a thread simply because it doesn't agree with what your agency teaches ... that's pretty damn arrogant.

... Bob (Grateful DIver)

I think it was a joke refering to my post on the previous page (post 180) lol

 

[LiteHedded]

oh calm down. it was a joke cus ryan posted an ascii facepalm.
figured by the time any thread gets that far it's run its course.
relax guy.

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

oh calm down. it was a joke cus ryan posted an ascii facepalm.
figured by the time any thread gets that far it's run its course.
relax guy.

To be honest... I did it for some comedic relief...

and because I don't understand why people dive deep air, or teach/advocate it.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

and because I don't understand why people dive deep air.

To understand something, you must first be willing to recognize that there might be valid reasons for it. Given that you do not, no amount of explanation will help you understand.

I don't advocate it ... not below certain limits. But I understand it ... partly because I dive in an environment where it's easy for recreational divers to get well below 100 fsw, particularly on some of the more popular dive sites.

Going below a 100 fsw END is the least of my concerns here ... watching relatively new divers do it in low vis conditions, on small tanks, with not a bloody clue of any gas management beyond "end the dive with 500 psi" is a greater concern to me than whether or not they use air or trimix.

I understand where you're coming from ... you guys dive in caves ... you only understand the rules as they apply to caves. Believe it or not ... you're less than 1% of all the divers out there who'll make dives below 100 fsw. Almost all of those other divers will never have the training, skills, or perspective you guys have. They won't ever dive in your environment ... and most of them will never understand why you believe what they do is a big deal.

Expressing yourselves the way you do won't help them understand your perspective either ... it's an impasse ... and frankly, there's way more important reasons why people get themselves into accidents that have nothing to do with what gas they're breathing.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)