Everything worked out great and now we're REALLY scared!

[eelnoraa]

is a dive light allowed on this dive? If you can see the line (with a dive light), would you NOT be disoriented?

 

[billt4sf]

My concern is that your wife apparently had no situational awareness. She doesn't realize "there is no bottom" until discussing it days later, and then you have to point it out?

You hit the most important point, I think, and am glad some folks noticed it. There may be a good lesson here for all dive buddies and instructors.

The problem stems from two factors (we discussed it quite a bit, as you can imagine). First, English is her second language, not her first. Manners of speech that are common for you and I are a sometimes opaque to her. It can be simple things like not understanding a word ("pelagic"). Dive instructors take note! Your English language learners might hear but not understand!!

Second, she was raised in a culture where girls were taught to be subservient (most of the world's cultures, I should imagine). Her Dad didn't let her learn to swim, ride a bike, or drive as a girl. (Most of her sisters still don't do any of those; Emily does all three -- plus diving!)

The combination of not understanding and being subservient by habit can be, er, deadly. EEEK! When we talked she said things like "well I was just doing what everybody else was doing".

An important lesson for BOTH of us: her to really think out the situation and me to make a second effort to check out her understanding. Diving is by nature a constantly-changing set of conditions.

Further suggestions of practicalities on how to mitigate this deadly combination in the diving context are welcome. "She should be more assertive" is a given; but in reality it is a life lesson not easily mastered.

Thanks,

Bill

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

You hit the most important point, I think, and am glad some folks noticed it. There may be a good lesson here for all dive buddies and instructors.

There are a great many lessons to be learned here ... first and foremost is that you, and only you, are responsible for your own safety. Dive operations are often more interested in filling up a trip than in ascertaining that the people making the dive are actually qualified to make it. Experienced divers often forget what it was like to be a new diver who didn't know what they didn't know. And well-intentioned sentiments of "don't worry about it, everything will be fine" sometimes prove to be fatal.

Reading your story scares the hell out of me, because it's obvious that the two of you are in no way ready to conduct this type of dive ... not only didn't you know what the potential risks were, you were clearly unprepared to deal with them should something have gone wrong.

For example ... ropes have been known to break ... particularly in the vicinity of boat propellors. Would you have been able to control your buoyancy well enough to not sink to the bottom? If you're not completely comfortable with your ability to surface safely without the aid of that rope, you have no business doing the dive.

The problem stems from two factors (we discussed it quite a bit, as you can imagine). First, English is her second language, not her first. Manners of speech that are common for you and I are a sometimes opaque to her. It can be simple things like not understanding a word ("pelagic"). Dive instructors take note! Your English language learners might hear but not understand!!

Second, she was raised in a culture where girls were taught to be subservient (most of the world's cultures, I should imagine). Her Dad didn't let her learn to swim, ride a bike, or drive as a girl. (Most of her sisters still don't do any of those; Emily does all three -- plus diving!)

My ex-wife and to this day favorite dive buddy was raised in a traditional Chinese household, where she grew up being told all the things she could not do because she was a girl. When she decided to learn scuba diving, she first had to learn how to swim. It took her several months, both before and after scuba training, to become completely confident and comfortable in the water. Today she is a very good diver, with over 850 dives. Your Emily is to be admired for rising above her cultural heritage and experiencing life on her terms. I wish you both the best ... which is why I urge you to consider not putting so much trust in "reputable" dive ops who would take new divers on what many would consider an advanced dive.

Both of you should be more assertive in asking yourselves and others "what are the risks", and "if something went wrong, am I prepared to deal with it without assistance?" If the answer to the last question is no ... or if it even raises significant doubts in your mind ... then the dive isn't right for you.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[billt4sf]

There are a great many lessons to be learned here ... first and foremost is that you, and only you, are responsible for your own safety. Dive operations are often more interested in filling up a trip than in ascertaining that the people making the dive are actually qualified to make it. Experienced divers often forget what it was like to be a new diver who didn't know what they didn't know. And well-intentioned sentiments of "don't worry about it, everything will be fine" sometimes prove to be fatal.

Reading your story scares the hell out of me, because it's obvious that the two of you are in no way ready to conduct this type of dive ... not only didn't you know what the potential risks were, you were clearly unprepared to deal with them should something have gone wrong.

For example ... ropes have been known to break ... particularly in the vicinity of boat propellors. Would you have been able to control your buoyancy well enough to not sink to the bottom? If you're not completely comfortable with your ability to surface safely without the aid of that rope, you have no business doing the dive.

My ex-wife and to this day favorite dive buddy was raised in a traditional Chinese household, where she grew up being told all the things she could not do because she was a girl. When she decided to learn scuba diving, she first had to learn how to swim. It took her several months, both before and after scuba training, to become completely confident and comfortable in the water. Today she is a very good diver, with over 850 dives. Your Emily is to be admired for rising above her cultural heritage and experiencing life on her terms. I wish you both the best ... which is why I urge you to consider not putting so much trust in "reputable" dive ops who would take new divers on what many would consider an advanced dive.

Both of you should be more assertive in asking yourselves and others "what are the risks", and "if something went wrong, am I prepared to deal with it without assistance?" If the answer to the last question is no ... or if it even raises significant doubts in your mind ... then the dive isn't right for you.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Agreed. That's why I wrote the Original Posting (and for others to learn from our mistakes).

So what would it take in terms of skills?

1) Be confident we could surface safely without the rope.

2) Control buoyancy without the aid of the rope, possibly in the dark.

How does one gain experience in these skills ? Just dive more?

We like to take classes. We took (and were certified at) the AOW class. (Which doesn't mean too much, I think. I have talked to people that took it right after they were certified.)

I would like to practice the above skills (as well as the basic OW skills) and also we need to learn more and practice navigation, and then deep diving at some point. Should we take a class, if so which one, or just keep diving and practice these skills as we dive? We try to dive once a month and then most of the vacation times, too. Love it!

Thanks,

Bill

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The biggest potential issue is disorientation, because you have no visual reference. Buoyancy control is certainly requisite ... but even if you have reasonable buoyancy control you must still get past the tendency to lose your frame of reference because you can't see anything except water (and hopefully, each other).

In my AOW class we practice diving in those conditions by doing navigational patterns at a constant depth while the bottom is too far below us to see ... typically at 20 feet in 40-70 feet of water. Keep in mind that in a classroom you're in a controlled environment, but in the real world you will not have the advantage of being mentally prepared for this type of dive, and stress will make the task of buoyancy control more difficult ... because stress affects your breathing and that affects your ability to control your buoyancy. But a good start would be to just learn how to swim mid-water without visual reference while maintaining a constant depth. Also make sure you can do so while keeping track of your dive buddy ... because if one of you starts to sink the other has to help make sure you get your balance back. In the class we practice this by giving one student the compass and the other the depth gauge/bottom timer ... so they have to maintain eye contact and work together to complete the navigation pattern.

In the real world, diving is the application of multiple skills at the same time. This takes awareness and practice ... but after a while you get to realize it ain't no big whoop ... kind of like walking and carrying on a conversation at the same time. It just takes practice.

Start shallow ... in maybe 20 feet of water. Get 10 feet off the bottom. Now swim around while maintaining that depth. When you can hold that depth without too much effort, move a little deeper ... where you can't see the bottom ... and repeat the exercise. When you can hold your depth without sinking, then you're ready for a "bottomless" dive.

Don't just trust the rope. Equipment fails ... and the whole point of training is to be prepared to deal with failures ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[CT-Rich]

How does one gain experience in these skills ? Just dive more?

It sounds to me like you have already seen a lot of stuff to absorb. I would say that your best bet and most useful thing to do would be to log as many dives as you can. Your area has a lot of cool dive sites to explore and you could probably learn a lot from just enjoying the dives that you feel comfortable with.

Diving is not a race, and more cards in your wallet are not really serving any purpose. Take the classes that you have an immediate use for so that you can make the kind of fun outings that you enjoy. The vacation dive you made exceeded your skills and comfort levels and you know better now what you are capable of. As you build your comfort level, you will learn what interests you want to pursue, like photography or spearfishing or wreck diving. A lot of fun can be had doing a 25 foot shore dive during the day and maybe at night. Just enjoy the diving, leave the macho for others.

 

[ianr33]

This is a dive I would really like to do someday.

Details are here: Black Water Night Dive see pelagic fish off Kona Hawaii's magic coast line Scuba Hawaii

 

[billt4sf]

Just make sure you can control your buoyancy without a visual reference.

 

[Chilly_Dipper]

I got geared up and jumped in. As soon as I entered the water, I thought, “Shoot, am I supposed to wait for my buddy? (my wife) or should I just go down?” I yelled up to the crew about this but they didn’t hear me, they were getting others ready. Other divers had already descended so I did, too.

Bill

Mistake 1 descent without buddy or guide

I descended and my first reaction was “Am I going down?” Two seconds later I hit the end of my line so that answered that. I tried to reach neutral buoyancy but again I knew I was moving in the water column but couldn’t tell if I was going up or down. I popped up to the surface and tried again. Finally I hit upon the technique of being slightly negatively buoyant and finning slowly and tried to begin to enjoy the dive.
Bill

Mistake 2. You're an advanced OW diver and don't know enough to check your depth gauge to determine if you are descending or ascending in an un referenced dive.

I looked for my wife, I identified her and saw that she was negatively buoyant, hanging on the end of her line. I went down and we exchanged OK signals, and I signaled her to "go up" "a little bit" but she ignored me so I went back up a bit and tried to be in about 20’ of water, finning slowly to keep that level. I really started to worry about her being on the end of her line so I again tried to get her to come up to no avail. The DM was swimming around, checking on various group members and I pointed her out to him. He also tried to get her to come up a bit but she didn’t.
Bill

Mistake 3 (your wife's) not paying attention to the dive briefing and understanding the type of dive you are undertaking


Advice. Stick to shore dives and work on your communication skills both above and below the water.

---------- Post added July 16th, 2013 at 01:22 PM ----------

And to tell you the truth you've scared me on the outside chance I might end up diving on the same boat as the two of you.

 

[billt4sf]

Mistake 1 descent without buddy or guide


Mistake 2. You're an advanced OW diver and don't know enough to check your depth gauge to determine if you are descending or ascending in an un referenced dive.



Mistake 3 (your wife's) not paying attention to the dive briefing and understanding the type of dive you are undertaking


Advice. Stick to shore dives and work on your communication skills both above and below the water.

---------- Post added July 16th, 2013 at 01:22 PM ----------

And to tell you the truth you've scared me on the outside chance I might end up diving on the same boat as the two of you.

Advice for CD:

1) recognize that I posted because I knew we had made some terrible mistakes and that we were looking to learn from them. Go easy on the condemnations of those less experienced than yourself.

2) Look at the date of the original post.