Etiquette if the shop doesn't fill the tank completely

[cozmo]

Legit question, do you charge by the actual Cu Ft used to fill or the rated Cu Ft of the cylinder?

We charge for what CF of gas we put into the cylinder

How much is a cubic foot of air in your shop? Is there a minimum?

Air .12
Banked Nitrox .23
O2 .75
He 2.75
Argon .80

No min however I am getting a little over filling paintball bottle tanks for .50 to .80 a pop.(still have not covered the cost of the adaptor with their fills)

So if you dive your AL 80 by thirds and we fill 2k back into the tank with air to the rated capacity it would cost you $6.24 and for you rec divers that get back on the boat with 500psi it would cost $7.80 also don't want to leave out you spear fishermen bringing tanks in with maybe 100psi(you know who you are LOL) it would be about $9.

Now if you were diving back mount doubles or sidemount LP85s and dove in thirds of a common cave fill of 3600psi and had them topped off to 32% we would add 153cf of gas for $35.32 or 17.66 per tank.

Funny thing is the cost for scuba gasses have not changed all that much for 30 yrs except Helium.(yes some regions are cheaper than others) and compressors and parts to keep them going keep going up.

 

[Seaweed Doc]

At My shop we charge by the cu.ft. for all our gasses; we fill all tanks in a water bath @70f to pressure and tank is not released back to customer until the tank is at desired psi and it is @70f +/-5. An AL80 takes about 28min. Steels take a little longer as they take longer to dissipate the heat from filling. All our banks air and 36%are at 5k and can fill up to 5 tanks at a time.

Edited: Question deleted because answered while I was typing....

 

[hilljo88]

I consider it a safety issue. Not so much what I come back with, but in the edge case of needing to share air with an OOA diver. 2700 might be okay for a shallow shore dive, but otherwise its just like shorting any other element of dive safety.

 

[steinbil]

I consider it a safety issue. Not so much what I come back with, but in the edge case of needing to share air with an OOA diver. 2700 might be okay for a shallow shore dive, but otherwise its just like shorting any other element of dive safety.

It shouldn't be. You should plan your dive according to the actual gas you bring on the dive, including a gas reserve for air sharing. If you have less gas, make a shallower dive. Of course it's an inconvenience if a bad fill makes you unable to do the dive you want. But it shouldn't be a safety issue unless you forgo normal gas management.

 

[hilljo88]

It shouldn't be. You should plan your dive according to the actual gas you bring on the dive, including a gas reserve for air sharing. If you have less gas, make a shallower dive. Of course it's an inconvenience if a bad fill makes you unable to do the dive you want. But it shouldn't be a safety issue unless you forgo normal gas management.

I disagree. It’s the unknown unknown that requires the extra margin. And what are we really talking about? Getting a standard “fill” as opposed to being shorted.

 

[SlugLife]

How do you guys approach to make sure you get the full fill?

Shops are usually happy to test the tank pressure, even if they already tested it, and show me the pressure checker. So far, no shop-worker has treated it as an insult or shown signs of frustration.

I sometimes also check tank-pressure at my car before leaving the shop. I have tank-pressure checkers, they're all yoke, so usually the easiest thing to do is attach one of my regulators and check that way. If it's a light fill I'll ask them to ptop it off, but only within reason. For example 2800 or lower, on a 3000 psi tank, I'm definitely taking it back in. However, 2900/3000psi I'm not going to nit-pick.

 

[SlugLife]

I use a white paint marker on my tanks. I highlight the hydro date, working pressure, and tank identification number.
Any fill in a pony bottle should last for the life of the hydro unless you have an out of air emergency, which you should never have.

I do test-breaths on my pony tank pre-dive, and practice breaths during dive. It still takes a long time to empty, however I've found a transfill-whip is quite useful, especially if you have to empty the tank for travel.

FWIW, I hardly ever come back with less than 1000psi, so I really don't care.

I've had shops "fill" tanks 1000psi or more lower (1800 out of 3000). The majority of my dives these days I come back with lots to spare, but there are a few dives where I want to squeeze out every available second.

Just ask nicely and they will usually correct it. Overfilling so the bottle cools to the proper temp is not an issue by any standard out there.

^ 100%

I get mine filled why I wait because I don't live near a shop and they have to be filled before I leave so I can dive when I return.

Same here, and I'm about to move even further. I'm almost to the point of buying a compressor.

This is probably a whole separate thread but 5 years for air? There seems to be varying opinion, some say 3 months, some say indefinite almost it seems.

Air is mostly indefinite, unless corrosion is an issue. For example, I purchased some steel tanks which had nitrox in them for an extended period of time. They developed some surface rust, along with some metal particles in the bottom of the tank (from the rust), which then requires cleaning before it can pass visual, and obviously you wouldn't want to breathe in those steel/rust specs. That's perhaps a bit of an edge-case though.

Are shops not just filling to 3300-3400 and letting them cool to proper pressure?

A local shop I frequent used to short-fill all the time. I think they eventually "discovered" it's better to hot fill to about 3300, and I haven't gotten a short-fill there recently.

The shop I used to use before I bought a compressor would top pony bottles for free. I thought that was a good policy.

Around here, it's $10 per fill, no matter the size of tank. As a result, I just transfill, it's a lot easier and cheaper, plus skips the "VIP tax" (though I can now VIP my own tanks).

 

[SlugLife]

Seriously??? There is virtually no overhead so the charge is almost entirely profit. If they are doing tons of fills it's a significant amount. Sorry - if I'm paying for a full fill I wnat a full fill.

I'm 50/50 agree/disagree. There is a massive investment involved, plus labor, for each fill. Recouping that investment might take a LOT of fills.

That said, I've also listened to dive-shop owners claim to make no money off of services, in which they're clearly making money. For example, a LDS claimed they make no money off $30 VIPs. That's just ridiculous. The VIP class is about $285, and you'll want some basic tools, stickers, etc. But then, the majority of tanks can be VIPed in a couple minutes, using about $1 (or less) of materials. Sketchy tanks might take a little longer. Most local shops also make you wait a week, meaning they VIP all the tanks at once, and can probably VIP 10-or-more tanks an hour.

I took the class, and will probably recoup costs within 3 years simply inspecting my own tanks.

 

[johndiver999]

Today I watched our local tank guy get terribly confused with which way the valves on the filler yoke and my tank work. Finally, I said you are turning it the wrong way. Got several tanks filled with the banked mix of 36 and asked for one tank of 32% which requires mixing.

I didn't watch him do that tank, but when he gave it to me, he asked for me to let him know how close he got when I checked the mix. They never check their work- it is against their policy I guess. It came out at 24%, so I recalibrated the sensor and got the same reading.

I told him it was way off, and he said we can drain the tank and start over, but told me that the final mix also depends on how much gas was left in the tank from the prior fill. I reminded him that the tank was absolutely empty when I handed it to him, so that was a ridiculous and ignorant excuse- although I didn't say that. I asked him how me made the mix (using oxygen or diluting down the banked 36) and he said he used the 36, not o2.

So I took the tank out side, blasted some gas out of it, brought it back inside and then checked the pressure and it was 2000, so I took it back out and let a little more out and then asked him to fill it to 3000 with the 36% banked mix. He once again only filled it to 2800 and it checked out at 28% - my fault I should have done the math and drained it more, but I was frustrated and lazy.

The guy has worked there for months. After I left, I called the head guy in the shop at the time and explained the situation and after doing a little rithmatic on my phone figured out that he must have looked at the mix recipe for using pure oxygen (to start the fill), but instead just put about 500 psi of 36% and topped with air. The boss confirmed that is what the guy did. Pretty damn scary for that to be the guy's primary responsibility and he is apparently clueless.

The shop was cool and credited me for one fill (which I did not ask for) and when I got home I transfilled some more 36% from a hp tank to the lean LP tank, so I'm probably close to 30% - probably should do some more rithmatic.

A good reminder to check your mix, I guess.

 

[MaxBottomtime]

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