Environmental Police

[Spectre]

FISTS ARE NOT A DEADLY WEAPON! Sorry, that's the law (that's why you always carry mace too)!!! If you kill an unarmerd person in MA you could be in serious trouble. This ain't FL.

Actually....

There has been cases where a trained martial artist 'defended himself' against a mugger; and they actually -lost- the lawsuit, with the determination being that the martial artist's bare hands were more lethal then the mugger's knife.

I unfortunately don't have references to cite; I just remember the warnings when I was training.

 

[MASS-Diver]

Actually....

There has been cases where a trained martial artist 'defended himself' against a mugger; and they actually -lost- the lawsuit, with the determination being that the martial artist's bare hands were more lethal then the mugger's knife.

I unfortunately don't have references to cite; I just remember the warnings when I was training.

Yup, that's the exception. A guy my dad used to work out with in Southie back in the day was a well known semi-pro boxer. He threatened some guy and the guy pulled out a pistol and shot the boxer once in the head. He was not charged.

However, in general the golden rule is "you can't shoot someone for punching you in the face." Most people's hands do not count as deadly weapons (unless you have training). Another exception would be if there in there is a gross dispartity in size (250lb mugger and 105lbs women). For this reason, everyone that carries a gun is taught to carry mace/OC as well as your sidearm.

Again, this is MA - not FL, they don't want people using guns in self-defense here. This is the take home message from every firearm course I've taken.

 

[MASS-Diver]

I was at a wedding this past Spring and my gfriend and I were seated with a cop. The conversation came up about this very topic - use of deadly force laws in Mass. This cop verified what Mass Diver said - evern if someone breaks into your house and comes into your bedroom in the middle of the night - if you shoot them - you will spend the rest of your life in jail. You have an obligation to flee and do everything you possibly can to avoid using deadly force. Only under obvious circumstances - where your life (family etc.) is on the line may you use deadly forece. i.e. You and the wife are cornered by a guy about to chop your head off with an axe - only under those blatant circumstances can you use deadly force - according to this officer I spoke to.

--Matt

Yup, it sucks here.


And warpig - in terms of shooting someone in my house, I've spend a lot of money on tritium sights for a reason. We all know the old trite saying "It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

 

[ScubaNorth]

So whose diving with me in Plymouth this weekend? Might be kind of interesting. I've got a bunch of choices:
ignore them
videotape them
challenge them
hit them (not going to happen, I'm old and slow)
call a lawyer
relax and enjoy it
give up diving

any others?

I have three lawyers and not one of them dives, or I would drag one along for this type of show. My buddy George loves to get into it and he is one heck of an attorney.

Oh the last choice is join em. The test was on the 5th but maybe next year.

 

[PAdiver93]

I was at a wedding this past Spring and my gfriend and I were seated with a cop. The conversation came up about this very topic - use of deadly force laws in Mass. This cop verified what Mass Diver said - evern if someone breaks into your house and comes into your bedroom in the middle of the night - if you shoot them - you will spend the rest of your life in jail. You have an obligation to flee and do everything you possibly can to avoid using deadly force. Only under obvious circumstances - where your life (family etc.) is on the line may you use deadly forece. i.e. You and the wife are cornered by a guy about to chop your head off with an axe - only under those blatant circumstances can you use deadly force - according to this officer I spoke to.

--Matt

OK guys I'm really getting sick of this... Yes., you do have to flee, but know YOUR rights - you can and should defend yourself and your property (to a point and do know that a life is worth more than a lobster)... I hate lawyer jokes - since I'm one... but we r not that bad. And thank you ScubaNorth for explaing that cops are just like a marketing agency - because of what u said and that's exactly what's not being followed - crime rates r up..... BOTTOM LINE - EP - in any state is pushing it - stand up and defend yourself (inconvenient? may be, but if you r not doing anything illegal - any cop or lawyer will tell u - PUSH and KICK for your rights)

 

[BigJetDriver]

So whose diving with me in Plymouth this weekend? Might be kind of interesting. I've got a bunch of choices:
ignore them
videotape them
challenge them
hit them (not going to happen, I'm old and slow)
call a lawyer
relax and enjoy it
give up diving

any others?

Johlar,

I'll take a shot at this (so to speak), in slightly reversed order.

(1) Give up diving.---Well, I hope not. It sounds as if you enjoy it, as do we all, so, don't give up yet!

(2) Relax and enjoy it.---This sounds like the advice that was given by misguided men to women about rape in the old days. (a) It wouldn't be fun and, (b) it isn't right to start with.

(3) Ignore them.--They will make this choice impossible.

(4) Challenge them.--They hold all the aces, and this will make things worse.

(5) Hit them.---See the above. This choice will make things VERY much worse.

(6) Videotape them.---Now we get to the strategy part. If you can arrange this on a clandestine basis, you will have the "Power of Panasonic" (which is near to that of God himself) with you!

(7) Call a lawyer.---Having done #6 above, you are now ready to call. Present the evidence to an attorney and see what he or she suggests as the proper procedure.

If you feel your rights as a citizen are being violated, and you are willing to put some effort into it, you might be doing a lot of people a favor.

Now, to some it might seem odd that I, as a law enforcement officer myself, am suggesting this.

I am an instructor for my department. I tell my students, when they object to the idea that the "dash-cam", or a "citizen cam" might be recording them, that if they are doing their job politely and properly, the tape will be their absolute BEST DEFENSE. If they are not following procedure, it WILL be their worst enemy.

A perfect example is the latest pursuit by the LAPD in the Los Angeles area. It was an absolute text-book case, and the "helicopter-cam" showed exactly that. The officers proceded by the book, captured the guy who had attempted an armed kidnapping of a woman, and no one was hurt (except the suspect who resisted the gentle ministrations of the police K-9)!

Good luck!

 

[warpig]

OK guys I'm really getting sick of this... Yes., you do have to flee

you know for a lawyer, your interpretation of massachusetts law is pretty damn poor.

again, for the laywer; massachusetts gun law states: If you are in your own home, there is no duty to retreat

what am i missing hear? explain to me what 'no duty to retreat' means.

again i apologize to the other readers... i've been reduces to a quivering flameboy. i just cant let people get away with thinking (and more importantly, lead other people to think) that they have to 'run' or 'flee' from danger in their own home.

call me w/e want, just dont call me a liar. i know my rights. obviously you dont.

 

[Goose75]

...Furthermore, if you catch someone in your house, you have an obligation to flee, you have no right to even stand your ground...

Does the law change if you put it in a lobster bag?

Sorry, too good to resist.

Back to being serious. I think the video option is the best answer for the EP searches. A video camera in the arms of a very polite and inquisitive person. Polite because it will hang them much faster in the court of public opinion. Random searches of unattended vehicles is not spelled out as their department policy, so public embarrasment can do more to change things. Court may end in a reprimand and the conduct quietly continues but more carefully.

 

[Turk6482]

OK, more fuel for the fire. My friend got back and brought up some good points that have been already posted (In some form or another) here. His reply to me after I found the law was..................

Just because there's a statute doesn't mean that it's going to pass
Constitutional muster.

Because they make it an administrative search by police poses one
problem;
however, there's another burden on the cop:

"in which he has reasonable cause to believe, and does believe, that
fish
taken, held, kept, possessed, transported or held for transportation or
sale in
violation of law, may be found"

Have to:
1) reasonably believe
2) presence of "fish" (what does "fish" mean? what about lobster?)
3) both 1 and 2, PLUS "held ... in violation of law."

How the hell does he have all of these three?

So on we go to debate this but in the end, what is being done will kept being done until the E.P get tired or find something better to do.

I myself have not had any problems, maybe I have just lucked out and met some of the more experianced ones out there or they already had given a hard time to the other divers and had gotten tired.

 

[warpig]

Does the law change if you put it in a lobster bag?

good one lol