Enriched Air v. Advanced Open Water Certifications

[leapfrog]

Because money doesn't grow on trees the last time I checked, unless you're dive instructor apparently!

All joking aside, we're all trying to make our greenbacks go farther, I'll continue to support an op who works with me on price and gives me a good value and a good class rather than the cheapest class around, but it's a two way street!

A discount doesn't necessarily mean lesser training. Take it this way, would you rather sell AOW for $350 and EANx for $100 or and AOW/EANx combo for $400? I'd be willing to bet that the costumer would probably end up spending the extra $50 with the op anyway. We both win me thinks! Wiz

I have no doubt about your business acumen and I understand what you are getting at.

What I do is the following: I sell AOW for 350 Euros. I sell EANx for 100 Euros without dives and EANx for 180 Euros with 2 dives included. Now when we do the dives we talk through the planning the procedure, depths, NDLs, gas management, what might have to be taken into consideration in an OOG situation where the buddy is on 21% O2, setting and using the computer adequately and so on.

If I had a student who wanted a "combo" (we are getting dangerously into fast food talk again, yuck) He/she would do the EANx and then his/her adventure dives on Nitrox. We would talk about gas management and PPO2 and so on probably for Deep and Multilevel. So far this has cost the student 450. Now why would I give a discount of 50 just because he/she is doing them together? It's the discount mentality that's destroying the profession and it's reputation.

Just to give you some whacky outside the box examples for other professions:

1. Lawyers: $50,000 for filing Chapter 11. 50% discount on your divorce if done simultaneously.
2. Dentists: $3,000 for an orthodoncy and cap. 50% discount on your cavities if done at the same time.
3. Skydiving Instructor: $2,000 to teach you how to freefall. 50% discount on the class where we show you how to pull, open the chute and steer back to the LZ and maybe get back alive. The class where we teach you to cutaway is extra!

Teaching is a profession that requires time. When you pay me to teach you, there should be no time constraints. I have to cope with the fact that some people will get it faster and others need longer. No sweat. Why save $50 on a $100 C-Card that allows you to use EANx up to 40% but not really understand the advantages, disadvantages and dangers of using it?

If you are working at an LDS by all means give customers discounts on equipment sales for large purchases. NEVER discount your time.

NB: This is just my own very personal opinion. Y'all can do with your time and money whatever you choose.

 

[oly5050user]

But this brings up a good point. One of the more useful things one can get out of an AOW class, esp. if one lives in NY, is drysuit experience. I doubt it's too cold though. My wife just got her AOW - in Alaska. Because she used drysuit as one of the five dives, she was able to get a drysuit cert with only one more dive (total of six) and $100 more. Total price was about $550 for the AOW and drysuit certs, including book, pool time, cert cards, rental gear, etc. For her 5, she had nav, deep, drysuit, search & rescue and naturalist. I don't think she got a huge amount out of the class, beyond getting in six drysuit dives under the watchful eye of an instructor - which is really what we were looking for, since she only had 6 dives coming into the class (now has a total of 12).

Is there some reason he would HAVE to don't out on a boat? Don't you have anywhere you can dive without the boat?? Could be a away to reduce costs.

Cheers!
nd

In the NY area there is next to none local beach access..and where there is it is a pain to use..Dutch is an alternative but now we are talking about INCREASING the cost as I have to figure in my expenses to get there-hotel-food etc..the cost difference to the student is minimal when you figure in the entry fee at Dutch for 2 days-$60. now the gas/time to get there-$100. hotel$125. total of $285.not including meals.. We sat down and figured out it costs a instructor a minimal of $300.-$350. to do a training weekend there.Also ,are you doing the class to get a card or taking it to get competent in local North East diving? If it is to get a card then do it in the islands or at a quarry.The prices I quoted do not include the advance text or rentals or a speciality card for dry suit.Can use suit for advance after an orientation in pool but still have to do academics for speciality card.The speciality is supposed to include more than doing dives in the suit.There is academics of about 3-4 hrs to complete to truly earn the card under standards.I would charge another $125. if you want the speciality "dry suit" if done while in advance class.Not in class and want the speciality cost is $300.includes class/pool/dives/boat fee.Done on a private/semi private basis.I cannot give my time away.

 

[leapfrog]

The speciality is supposed to include more than doing dives in the suit.There is academics of about 3-4 hrs to complete to truly earn the card under standards.I would charge another $125. if you want the speciality "dry suit" if done while in advance class.Not in class and want the speciality cost is $300.includes class/pool/dives/boat fee.Done on a private/semi private basis.I cannot give my time away.

Thank God I am not the only guy here trying to make an honest living out of this while doing things in a proper fashion. No more discounts or cheapo combos!

 

[NudeDiver]

All I ask is if I get charged for a class, the instructor actually add value. When I take a class and get nothing more out of it than what I can read in the book on my own, a discount is definitely merited.

 

[leapfrog]

All I ask is if I get charged for a class, the instructor actually add value. When I take a class and get nothing more out of it than what I can read in the book on my own, a discount is definitely merited.

Before you take a class, do all the research you can. There are excellent instructors who add value and there are guys who should be thrown out for good. Before you do college degree or send your kids to school, you research. Do the same with your instructor(s). If you feel you are not getting what you paid for COMPLAIN, write to his/her agency and change instructor even if it costs you some. There are some pretty savvy people on the Board who know the best instructors all over the place..ask!

 

[NudeDiver]

Before you take a class, do all the research you can. There are excellent instructors who add value and there are guys who should be thrown out for good. Before you do college degree or send your kids to school, you research. Do the same with your instructor(s). If you feel you are not getting what you paid for COMPLAIN, write to his/her agency and change instructor even if it costs you some. There are some pretty savvy people on the Board who know the best instructors all over the place..ask!

In an ideal world, sure. Works well for local classes - but if you're going to Location A and plan to take a class on date B because that's what fits your schedule, you may not have a choice of instructors, etc. I'm basically done taking classes anyway

 

[NudeDiver]

In the NY area there is next to none local beach access..and where there is it is a pain to use..Dutch is an alternative but now we are talking about INCREASING the cost as I have to figure in my expenses to get there-hotel-food etc..

Not trying to pick a bone with you man - just asking about the diving environment there. I thought they had a number of big lakes in NY, thought maybe they would be of use, that's all.

The prices I quoted do not include the advance text or rentals or a speciality card for dry suit.

I'm just curious, why not? I understand leaving out the rental fee. However, you need the text for the class, and the outcome of the class is the card - so why not at least include those costs in an advertised price? A lot of people hate the "it costs X - but there is fee A, B, and C, "plus tax", so the REAL cost is Z" approach. It's a turn off.

I cannot give my time away.

..and not what anyone has suggested as far as I can tell. However, it is common in pretty much any industry of any kind, the more you buy, the better price you get. In this case, we're talking about buying training. It's not unreasonable for people to try to get a better price by buying more of it.

For example - I recently completed my RD class. The RD + Dan 02 class was $200 more. However, I could take the Dan 02 class at any time for the same $200. There was no financial benefit to doing it at the same time as the RD class. So, of COURSE I will wait until "sometime later" to take the Dan 02 class (if I take it at all) - simply to spread out the cost. However, had there been a discount even as small as $25 for doing it all at once - I would have done it at the same time as the RD class. Instruction is just like any other business, and subject to the same principles of basic marketing and consumer response.

 

[oly5050user]

Not trying to pick a bone with you man - just asking about the diving environment there. I thought they had a number of big lakes in NY, thought maybe they would be of use, that's all.

I'm just curious, why not? I understand leaving out the rental fee. However, you need the text for the class, and the outcome of the class is the card - so why not at least include those costs in an advertised price? A lot of people hate the "it costs X - but there is fee A, B, and C, "plus tax", so the REAL cost is Z" approach. It's a turn off.

..and not what anyone has suggested as far as I can tell. However, it is common in pretty much any industry of any kind, the more you buy, the better price you get. In this case, we're talking about buying training. It's not unreasonable for people to try to get a better price by buying more of it.

For example - I recently completed my RD class. The RD + Dan 02 class was $200 more. However, I could take the Dan 02 class at any time for the same $200. There was no financial benefit to doing it at the same time as the RD class. So, of COURSE I will wait until "sometime later" to take the Dan 02 class (if I take it at all) - simply to spread out the cost. However, had there been a discount even as small as $25 for doing it all at once - I would have done it at the same time as the RD class. Instruction is just like any other business, and subject to the same principles of basic marketing and consumer response.

Truly not trying to start trouble or anything..I appreciate your responses..I do not include the training materials,student must purchase them.Certification card is included at the successful completion of course.My prices may look high ,but figure in how much it costs to go to Dutch and get a room/meals there and my prices look comparable,maybe even less expensive.The student is also in a private/semi private environment with me,not in a group setting.Lakes are here in NY ,but again you get into travel and expenses..Dutch is almost 2 hr drive,minniewaska is almost the same.
Long Island Sound is 15 minutes away so minimal drive time and no hotel/meals to worry about.It is also salt water so buoyancy issues when going on to dive in the local ocean on the wrecks is not an issue.
As to tacking on an additional cert while doing one is not always in the best interest of the diver.Example is where some one takes a advance course and does the 5 dives in a dry suit.Maybe the instructor actually does a dry suit orientation in a pool before the dives.Do you truly think this person earned a dry suit speciality??I think not for what happened to learning about materials used in construction of suit and undergarments,accessories,repairs that they can do themselves,care of suit.How about emergency procedures such as stuck inflator valve,or an inversion?The instructors costs on teaching this does not change.My experience level also counts for some of the fee I charge-teaching since 1971 -there are many instructors/ store owners/dms/boat captains/police rescue staff working today that started ow or were trained by me.
I am not saying prepaying for a package cannot be done,I do it with Rescue/Divemaster courses,just saying that costs do not automatically drop for an instructor to conduct programs by offering these deals.If they do offer it as a "deal" usually shortcuts are taken and that very often lessens the value of the program.

 

[NudeDiver]

...but figure in how much it costs to go to Dutch and get a room/meals there and my prices look comparable

I dunno what "Dutch" is. I just know that NY has a lot of coast line. How far away from some water can you possibly be? What - four hours at most?

Dutch is almost 2 hr drive,minniewaska is almost the same.

Ah - there it is. That's not far at all - but I guess it's all relative. When you live in a place where the next major town is over 350 miles one-way, driving for a couple of hours to get somewhere is no big thing

As to tacking on an additional cert while doing one is not always in the best interest of the diver.Example is where some one takes a advance course and does the 5 dives in a dry suit.Maybe the instructor actually does a dry suit orientation in a pool before the dives.Do you truly think this person earned a dry suit speciality??

Not sure I'm following here. Everyone I know (locally) that has combined the drysuit specialty with some other course had a session in the pool just for the drysuit. Hell, even when I did my OW class, we had an extra pool session just for drysuit tutorial, even though we were not getting a drysuit specialty (all 4 of the OW dives were in the drysuit though).

I think not for what happened to learning about materials used in construction of suit and undergarments,accessories,repairs that they can do themselves,care of suit.How about emergency procedures such as stuck inflator valve,or an inversion?

Wife's AOW/drysuit sessions covered all that - so I dunno

 

[shark girl]

I'd say AOW, unless you're sure that Nitrox will make a huge difference to your diving in the immediate future. Peak performance buoyancy is a great class if you have a decent instructor, and night/ deep etc can help you to expand your diving horizons. Nav and Search and Rescue are worth while if you want to brush up on compass skills etc.

If time is an issue, it's worth looking in to taking the course as sets of adventure dives. I was able to do my AOW spread over a year; two dives on one evening in the local lake (PPB and nav), then three more the next dive season at the Poor Knights. They were done with two different companies- my local dive company were quite happy to pass my details on to the company up North with whom I finished the course.