enough weight

[Dave1981]

Just my opinion, but an instructor who says 10# is enough and isnt willing to flex at all for a new diver sounds like a P.O.S instructor...If she has no air in her BC, and is emptying her lungs as much as she can, and still cant get down, there isnt much more she can do.

A bad instructor would overweight the student until they're pinned to the pool bottom on their knees making it much easier for them to teach all the skills and get the student out of their hair quickly, believing that they were correctly taught and all is well.

There is no benefit for the instructor to underweight someone and purposely not allow them to descend. I can assure you no one wants to hang around in the pool longer than they need to, nor finds it fun to watch something they see all the time. If you can't get a student out into open water then you're not going to get paid for teaching the course.

The instructor might not be great at communicating the reasoning for that weighting, however once you've explained the buoyancy check and what you're doing the rest is physics. There is also the very common scenario that once someone has tried something and failed they give up and won't listen to instruction. If you truly believe you need more weight you'll just listen to the first few words then shut off and zone out knowing all you need is more weight.

In this situation no one wants to hear about archimedes principal explaining why you really are not overweighted, so you just have to keep reiterating the techniques to descend in as many different ways you can think of in order to get through to the student.

In this case it appears the diver is getting to the bottom then floating up, which makes it even more likely a breath control issue.

If this is dealt with by just adding more weight you'll make a diver that has buoyancy issues already, compounded by being overweighted and due to that will dive in awful trim. This is going to make diving once certified all the more difficult and much less enjoyable.

Well that ran on a bit...

 

[Togalive]

A bad instructor would overweight the student until they're pinned to the pool bottom on their knees making it much easier for them to teach all the skills and get the student out of their hair quickly, believing that they were correctly taught and all is well.

There is no benefit for the instructor to underweight someone and purposely not allow them to descend. I can assure you no one wants to hang around in the pool longer than they need to, nor finds it fun to watch something they see all the time. If you can't get a student out into open water then you're not going to get paid for teaching the course.

The instructor might not be great at communicating the reasoning for that weighting, however once you've explained the buoyancy check and what you're doing the rest is physics. There is also the very common scenario that once someone has tried something and failed they give up and won't listen to instruction. If you truly believe you need more weight you'll just listen to the first few words then shut off and zone out knowing all you need is more weight.

In this situation no one wants to hear about archimedes principal explaining why you really are not overweighted, so you just have to keep reiterating the techniques to descend in as many different ways you can think of in order to get through to the student.

In this case it appears the diver is getting to the bottom then floating up, which makes it even more likely a breath control issue.

If this is dealt with by just adding more weight you'll make a diver that has buoyancy issues already, compounded by being overweighted and due to that will dive in awful trim. This is going to make diving once certified all the more difficult and much less enjoyable.

Well that ran on a bit...

Agreed on the fact that a truly bad instructor would simply pin the students down to the bottom and go from there, however, I think just as there is something to be said for an instructor who approaches each student from different teaching angles, there is also something to be said for an instructor who is willing to be flexible, and possibly recognize an error in judgement/calculation. I'm a new diver, but even just through my certification process and dealing with some local shops, I found there was a high level of "standardization" that seems to occur in some locations, where an instructor might be so set in their ways that when a student who does need some flexibility comes around, they simply dont want to, or cannot cope.

That said, I completely agree with you that having read that she was able to get down to the bottom of the pool, and then began to rise up, it would seem to be a breath control issue. If the initial weighting test of sitting at eye level on the surface with an empty bc and a normal breath says your correctly weighted, then in most all situations your going to be correctly weighted.

In the event I outlined in my initial response ever occurs however, I stand by my opinion of any instructor who would be so hard headed.

Ran on a bit too

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I'd question the method of doing the weight checks. Is she wearing any kind of exposure suit? I check for neutral in just the suit first. Then we add the scuba unit and recheck. Many jacket bcs and some back inflates can take the so-called formula and shoot it in the foot. They have 4-5 lbs or more of inherent buoyancy themselves. So the formula really is just a ball park figure. And a really big park at that.

I would also suspect that the instructor is now causing the problem he should be trying to correct. She is now stressed and more than likely not breathing in a relaxed manner. So she may not be emptying her lungs to descend. If at depth with an empty bc she is still floating and having trouble staying down I'd add 2lbs. Then once she relaxes after a couple sessions recheck and we may be able to remove that. As it is now she is better off asking fior her money back and finding an instructor with a more open mind.

Also not sure who taught you to always listen to an instructor but that is just plain foolish. I want you to question me, listen to that inner voice that says I'm not sure about that, and if I really make you uncomfortable when I ask you to do something you are not really in your heart ready for, give me the finger and tell me to go to hell.

 

[Erku]

Also not sure who taught you to always listen to an instructor but that is just plain foolish. I want you to question me, listen to that inner voice that says I'm not sure about that, and if I really make you uncomfortable when I ask you to do something you are not really in your heart ready for, give me the finger and tell me to go to hell.

This and this again. I asked for explanations to a couple of my instructor's directions, and about why equipment is designed the way it is, when some of it seems silly on the surface (eg. standard location of drysuit buoyancy valves on the left elbow). Now I understand better why those things are the way they are (still have my misgivings about drysuit valves, but what do I know ). This needs to be standard student practice, in any subject.

 

[tracydr]

It could be she's slighty underweighted. Enough that at the end of a dive she can't compensate fore the added buoyancy, especially being new.
Is there any way we could get height/weight to calculate a rough estimate of what she needs? That and what is she wearing?
I find that every little clothing change effects my needed weight. Adding/subtracting skin, hood or gloves makes a difference. 50, 63, 80 tanks big difference. I like to have my weight as close to perfect as possible. I may even start carrying a 1/4 pound or two while traveling. I hate using the metric weights as the 1kg just isn't Small enough for best accuracy. (2.2lbs)
I also find what end of the island (salinity) can noticeably effect my buoyancy.
As your girlfriend gets more experience she will be able to start to notice these things. Some people are more sensitive than others, I think because of breathing issues. I would bet at least 90% of the patients I see in my urgent care don't know how to breathe. Really, they don't know how to "take a deep breath and blow it out". Sometimes I think we should require yoga and wind music in school so kids can learn how to breathe!

 

[tracydr]

I just thought of something little. My disgusting old BC leaves a pocket of air unless I roll over onto my right side to expel it. I think it has a little flaw in the system.
It's more obvious on the end of a dive when my tank is light.
I wonder if she's not getting all the air out of her bc?

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Many here seem to be making very premature judgments. We do not have near the whole story. Condemning the instructor based on this small batch of information is silly. There has likely been more than just "that's all you need" spoken by the instructor to the student. Still hoping to hear some of the details I asked for earlier in this thread

 

[DBailey]

For the skill of [this is your first time] breathing underwater, I will put enough weight on the student to get them to the bottom. Since many students are very anxious the very first time going underwater, I don't want to add to their stress level by using too little weight where they can't get under.

As the class progresses, the required amount of weight should be refined.

I would like to know where all of these calm, zen-like students are that you can do a weight check right out of the gate and it be valid.

 

[rtreefanatic]

thanks for the input everyone. i really appreciate it.
she has decided to quit with the certification for now.
we can close this thread.

 

[Erku]

Good thing that instructor doesn't value the mental comfort of his students. Saved himself the trouble of introducing someone new to diving

Is she quitting entirely because of that? Have you looked into other instructors in your area?