English tourist dies on Intro dive - Queenland Australia

[Peter69_56]

The problem is that we can regulate and make all the rules we want, however if we don't enforce them, they mean nothing. We are normally well regulated, however it has been a trend for some time now in particular with big business, to have self regulation. No implementation unless there is an injury or death. I work in the power industry and it has gone from a very regulated and checked industry to one where you can do what ever you want, however if someone dies the government will then and only then look into it and perhaps put some people in gaol.

How often is the dive industry checked in any form? Self regulation and checking. Perhaps its time the dive industry leaders do some self checking, or would that cut into profit and perhaps take some "profitable" cowboys out of the system?

Whilst we have some very good LDS and instructors, I think given we are a 1st world country, we should have less cowboys per capita than 3rd world countries. I suspect often its LDS not checking their staff to ensure they are following required standards. Just assuming because they have ben told therefore they will. The good LDS have constant self checking, the bad ones just assume all is well.

But I would reiterate, having a bucket full of rules doesn't mean anything will be safer "UNLESS" those rules are implemented and checked to be implemented on a continual basis.

 

[clownfishsydney]

It does not help when a lot of the dive instructors in Australia in places heavily visited by overseas tourists have less total experience than most of my friends get in one year. Yes, many instructors were not even divers a year ago.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Interesting insights. I am just wondering if there is something that is related to this incident that triggered this train of thought. Of course there are good and bad operators in all areas.

I don't like generalizations based on small samplings. I haven't had a bad experience with safety standards not being met in our Queensland or NSW boat diving. I have seen good and bad standards in third world countries.

68year old Snorkler.. could have been anything

https://au.news.yahoo.com/qld/a/26329390/second-tourist-dies-in-qld-reef-waters/

A second foreign tourist has died in reef waters off Queensland in as many days.
A 23-year-old English tourist died during an introductory dive off Hayman Island in the Whitsundays on Tuesday afternoon, police said.
She was diving with a professional dive tour company when she died.
Police are looking into the death and will prepare a report for the coroner.
It was the second death in the Great Barrier Reef in two days.
On Monday, a Chinese tourist died while snorkelling on the reef off Cairns.
The operators of a tourist boat found the 68-year-old man's body in water, 500 metres from Green Island. He had been holidaying in Australia with his wife.

Problem is that the media reports are not all that accurate... it depends on what will generate interest.

Lets not forget that the numbers of divers in the water in Queensland on a daily basis would be staggering!

I think we need a bit more information before we can really have much of an exchange that is actually related to this event...

 

[Peter69_56]

what triggered it for me was the memories of some very bad operators at Tweed Heads, Byron Bay, Cairns. I have done quiet a bit of diving up the east coast as well as overseas. My expectations in Australia is that as a "lucky country" with much regulation, we should know better. I agree, many of the operators are very good, and we are talking about a smaller portion of them being poor, and not the majority. It is however disappointing given our general knowledge, regulation etc that there is still too many dodgy dive shops. It reflects badly on all the good ones which is unfair.

No one wants government regulation of the dive industry, and so we should ensure that these dodgy shops are wiped out and standards maintained for the industry, thus keeping the government playing politics rather than to regulate the dive industry any more than it already is.

In relation to this event, I would suggest insufficient information is at hand to date to make a quality decision.

 

[Greenjuice]

Just been reported that the inquest on one of these fatalities is about to begin:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5723727/amp/Family-British-tourist-died-welcome-inquest-completely-avoidable-death.html

 

[chris.evans]

So three years, and no real facts? But the family lawyer is sending sound bytes to all UK news agencies saying that "they will find systematic failings" and "shocking revelations"... I guess we wait for them to travel to the location three years after the incident to find out what really happened?

 

[Greenjuice]

Updated report three days into the inquest; from an Australian source and a British source:

Ominous last photo before dive death

Scuba diver lost sight of British tourist, 23, before she drowned

Looks like vis was poor for such a dive and there was a missed opportunity, if the reports are correct that she made it to the surface for 40 seconds before going under.

The instructor giving evidence against the person involved says instructors need to be 'within arm's reach' of their students at all times. Thoughts?

 

[PugHugger]

The Coroner has released his findings in relation to this matter. I cannot locate the full reasons as yet but there is a reasonable summary at this link...

Coroner releases findings into British tourist's scuba death

The Coroner's recommendations are:
​

• 
  
  
  

  • A maximum introductory diver to instructor ratio of 2-1, or 1-1 if conditions are poor (such as current, visibility or surface chop).

  • That the term 'resort dive' be renamed to 'introductory dive'.

  • That instructors are to be always within arms-length of introductory divers, and to link arms if conditions are assessed as poor or very poor.

  • Dive instructors must do a dive site assessment, including assessing visibility with a secchi disk and conducting an in-water (at depth) visual inspection for horizontal visibility and to assess current.

  • That elementary dive skills, including mask clearing, regulator clearing, regulator recovery, buddy breathing, Buoyancy Control Device (BCD) inflate/deflate and emergency weight belt dropping are taught until competently demonstrated, within a controlled environment such as a swimming pool.

  • That diving groups are staggered and that routes are determined in a way to avoid dive group interaction while underwater.

  • That dive instructors have the final decision on whether a dive proceeds or is terminated. Not the tour operator or skipper, who may have commercial considerations influencing their judgment.

  • That safety measures include the 'surface watch' personnel having an emergency 'grab bag' on-board, which includes a weighted lost diver marker, and that instructors carry a suitable underwater marker system.

  • That swimming fins, if used, must include an accompanying 'fin safe' style retainer strap.

  • Whether a policy should be implemented that if any diver becomes separated all divers in a group must immediately surface and inflate their BCD, even though it is an emergency ascent.

  • That the Office of Industrial Relations consider, within six months, whether the relevant Code of Practice needs to be mandated as the minimum standard for operations, rather than being "guidelines”.

  • That the Dive and Snorkelling Death Review Panel be reformed by the Office of Industrial Relations, preferably within three months.

Personally, as someone who was an awful DSD student I think there is a lot to be said for lower ratios. I was very fortunate as I was in a one on one situation. Knowing how terrible I was at the start I can see how accidents like this can occur.

Some of the reccomendations though I think would be very hard to implement. For example determining routes to avoid dive group interaction underwater.

 

[Kay Dee]

It does not help when a lot of the dive instructors in Australia in places heavily visited by overseas tourists have less total experience than most of my friends get in one year. Yes, many instructors were not even divers a year ago.

I had an instructor friend who worked at one of the better known dive shops in Cairns some years ago, and the unwritten rule was that if you failed - give or take - 3 (IIRC) candidates (not all in one course, but during your employment with them) you lost your job; off course for some other reason supposedly, but..............................And this at the time was supposedly the norm around town. No doubt not every shop, but certainly quite a few.

He finally gave up after he had two OW students who had done their OW course in Thailand and were doing AOW with him, and they had never ever taken their mask of under water and he couldn't get them to / they wouldn't do it for him. Still he (had to) pass them but quit very soon after.

And he was a long term great diver and instructor really, but he needed the job at the time but just couldn't keep passing people who were not only a danger to themselves but others.

I think it's at least somewhat better, at least in Oz now - but not so sure about Asia as a whole - but still a lot of students today who should never have passed their course. And that's also true even in the 'Tech' world!

 

[chillyinCanada]

The Coroner has released his findings in relation to this matter. I cannot locate the full reasons as yet but there is a reasonable summary at this link...

Coroner releases findings into British tourist's scuba death

The Coroner's recommendations are:
​

• 
  
  
  

  • A maximum introductory diver to instructor ratio of 2-1, or 1-1 if conditions are poor (such as current, visibility or surface chop).

  • That the term 'resort dive' be renamed to 'introductory dive'.

  • That instructors are to be always within arms-length of introductory divers, and to link arms if conditions are assessed as poor or very poor.

  • Dive instructors must do a dive site assessment, including assessing visibility with a secchi disk and conducting an in-water (at depth) visual inspection for horizontal visibility and to assess current.

  • That elementary dive skills, including mask clearing, regulator clearing, regulator recovery, buddy breathing, Buoyancy Control Device (BCD) inflate/deflate and emergency weight belt dropping are taught until competently demonstrated, within a controlled environment such as a swimming pool.

  • That diving groups are staggered and that routes are determined in a way to avoid dive group interaction while underwater.

  • That dive instructors have the final decision on whether a dive proceeds or is terminated. Not the tour operator or skipper, who may have commercial considerations influencing their judgment.

  • That safety measures include the 'surface watch' personnel having an emergency 'grab bag' on-board, which includes a weighted lost diver marker, and that instructors carry a suitable underwater marker system.

  • That swimming fins, if used, must include an accompanying 'fin safe' style retainer strap.

  • Whether a policy should be implemented that if any diver becomes separated all divers in a group must immediately surface and inflate their BCD, even though it is an emergency ascent.

  • That the Office of Industrial Relations consider, within six months, whether the relevant Code of Practice needs to be mandated as the minimum standard for operations, rather than being "guidelines”.

  • That the Dive and Snorkelling Death Review Panel be reformed by the Office of Industrial Relations, preferably within three months.

Personally, as someone who was an awful DSD student I think there is a lot to be said for lower ratios. I was very fortunate as I was in a one on one situation. Knowing how terrible I was at the start I can see how accidents like this can occur.

Some of the reccomendations though I think would be very hard to implement. For example determining routes to avoid dive group interaction underwater.

A couple of these would be a good implementation on any boat operating anywhere, not just for DSD. For example, the surface watcher "grab bag".