Emergency Exit in Caves and Wrecks

[Rick Murchison]

...and with it the very same procedures like in a cave?

I suppose that for the parts of a cave that are shaped like the guts of a wreck, "yes" - but they are very different most of the time. Using heavier line in wrecks because of sharp edges has already been mentioned... In wrecks, when conditions allow, I like to keep the line as low in the passage as is prudent. In a wreck, big line traps like what we can see in caves aren't usually a problem; but figuring out how to run a line to avoid entanglement with cables/pipes/hoses is time consuming and very important.
I guess the real answer to your question is that it doesn't really matter whether you're in a wreck or a cave, good line placement to allow a safe exit in zero visibility is one of the items of prime importance, that placement will be dertermined by the conditions, and that conditions will vary with every foot of passage. In general, I move much more slowly in wrecks than in caves - but then I prefer great big caves with minimal restrictions.
Rick

 

[MikeFerrara]

Caves have permanent lines (gold line) already in place. Wrecks don't. This could have an effect on the exit and line trapping. Unless the gold line breaks in a cave, it seems like it would be easier to exit a cave. Wreck lines are placed by the diver so it all depends on the skill of the diver. The difference would be in the amount of penetration. Wreck penetrations are usually much shorter than cave penetrations, as far as distance is concerned.

Some caves have line in them and some don't. Only the popular caves have gold line. It is true that traditionally when you lay line in a cave that doesn't have any that you leave it. Whoever continues exploration adds to what's there. Sometimesz the original exploration line isn't run in the best places or marked the best and will be changed by some one later. In a wreck you normally remove your line but I've heard of wrecks that have permenant lines also.

 

[VeniVidi]

Thank you very much for your responses so far. It seems that when diving wrecks, the very same procedures seem to apply, although more prudent and therefore slower.
Now what about the ones, DA Aquamaster calls traditional wreck divers that penetrate without a line?

I have been shown the following article in another forum:

http://www.rebreatherworld.com/rebr...ts/1431-i-really-thought-my-end-had-come.html

How do you judge this? What do you think? Is traditional wreck diving so outdated in your opinions?

 

[Dive-aholic]

Some caves have line in them and some don't. Only the popular caves have gold line. It is true that traditionally when you lay line in a cave that doesn't have any that you leave it. Whoever continues exploration adds to what's there. Sometimesz the original exploration line isn't run in the best places or marked the best and will be changed by some one later. In a wreck you normally remove your line but I've heard of wrecks that have permenant lines also.

True, I over generalized. :11doh:

Thank you very much for your responses so far. It seems that when diving wrecks, the very same procedures seem to apply, although more prudent and therefore slower.
Now what about the ones, DA Aquamaster calls traditional wreck divers that penetrate without a line?

I have been shown the following article in another forum:

http://www.rebreatherworld.com/rebre...-had-come.html

How do you judge this? What do you think? Is traditional wreck diving so outdated in your opinions?

That's why I won't do a major penetration without a line. I've swam into a ship's bridge without laying a line, but there are openings all around. If only 1 or 2 walls have an opening, you can get lost in even a small room. Granted, you'll probably find your way out in time, but it's still stressful. I got silted out in a cavern once and couldn't even see my hand in front of my mask. I knew which way was out, but there were some restrictions to get through. Even with the line I found myself questioning the way out. I had to trust the line. What do you trust when you don't bring a line? Some divers dive wrecks without lines all the time without incident. I don't think I'll ever feel that comfortable in an overhead.

 

[AndyNZ]

Now what about the ones, DA Aquamaster calls traditional wreck divers that penetrate without a line?

It depends very much on the wreck, your familiarity, the dive plan and the conditions. It also depends on whether you are diving within or beyond the light zone.

For example, one of our local wrecks is a purpose sunk frigate and whilst some hazards exisit in the wreck, generally there are no silt problems. I've done progressively larger penetrations on the wreck - often initially with a line if going into a new area, but then once familiar with the area without a line. The chances of getting lost are low and because it's purpose sunk there are a lot of exits cut into the hull.

Some of other wrecks I wouldn't dream of entering without a line.

To answer your other question, yes touch contact is used when exiting in a silt out. The basic rule is drop the reel, maintain buddy contact and keep hold of the line.

 

[VeniVidi]

Thank you to all of you for the competent replies! Now that there are no more other responses, I guess, this is it. Smaller vessels can be penetrated simply by not using a line whereas more complex ships require all procedures as applied in caving. One question remaining: do you also use line markers, especially when you make repeated dives on the wreck where you have left the main guideline (temporarily) permanent?

 

[wreckedinri]

. . . To answer your other question, yes touch contact is used when exiting in a silt out. The basic rule is drop the reel, maintain buddy contact and keep hold of the line.

Perhaps things are done quite differently and for good reasons on the other side of this great planet, but I don't understand why one would "drop the reel". IMHO, one should always maintain control of the line that they are laying - in a wreck - and retrieve it upon exiting. In a "silt-out" SOP would be to have the non-reelhandling diver OK the line on the way out ahead of the reelhandling diver retrieving the line.

To answer the last question posed about line arrows: They are not necesary. Considering that the diver/team recovers their line on the way out. Leaving line in a wreck is considered bad form as it creates another entaglement hazzard.

Just my $.02 on this rainy day in New England.

 

[JimC]

Perhaps things are done quite differently and for good reasons on the other side of this great planet, but I don't understand why one would "drop the reel". IMHO, one should always maintain control of the line that they are laying - in a wreck - and retrieve it upon exiting. In a "silt-out" SOP would be to have the non-reelhandling diver OK the line on the way out ahead of the reelhandling diver retrieving the line.

To answer the last question posed about line arrows: They are not necesary. Considering that the diver/team recovers their line on the way out. Leaving line in a wreck is considered bad form as it creates another entaglement hazzard.

Just my $.02 on this rainy day in New England.

A silt out can/will slow you down. Locking off the reel, placing it down and exiting without it may buy you the time to get out and get to your first gas switch.

Some dives I do I plan on a zero vis exit, and thus reserve more gas to exiting similar to how you would dive a syphon. But if its a total silt out and I am turning on gas, your damn right I am leaving that reel in there. I may not have the x extra minutes to deal with recovering a line.

Some wrecks have permanent lines in them too, in them line arrows and other "cave" protocol come into play.

 

[wreckedinri]

A silt out can/will slow you down. Locking off the reel, placing it down and exiting without it may buy you the time to get out and get to your first gas switch.

Some dives I do I plan on a zero vis exit, and thus reserve more gas to exiting similar to how you would dive a syphon. But if its a total silt out and I am turning on gas, your damn right I am leaving that reel in there. I may not have the x extra minutes to deal with recovering a line.

Some wrecks have permanent lines in them too, in them line arrows and other "cave" protocol come into play.

Thanks for the thorough and informational reply. As I said, things are done different ways in different places. In this neck of the woods our wrecks tend to be smallish (U-boats, asstd. US subs, coastal frieghters, and fishing vessels) and in most cases, advanced states of decay so permanent lines are not installed. Line is not typicaly left on or in a wreck as entanglment hazzards are already abundant (ie: mono fishing lines, gill nets, lobster trawls) and vis is seldom less than ideal. Usually, our dives are "night dives", especially once we get below 150fsw. Heck, most of the time reels are needed just to find the hook!

Your points are well taken. In a situation as you laid out, I'd drop the reel in a heartbeat!

Dennis

 

[AndyNZ]

One question remaining: do you also use line markers, especially when you make repeated dives on the wreck where you have left the main guideline (temporarily) permanent?

Not as such - though I have marked both my main reel and my jump reel at 2m intervals with a "dot-dash". The dot indicates the direction to the reel, the dash indicates the direction to the exit. It's not rocket science, just a permanent marker coloured section.

I don't know many people who do this - possibly not many people use jump reels in a wreck at all? I marked my lines after once getting disorientated on a jump line and getting back to the main line and not knowing which way was out. Thankfully, nothing was wrong and after turning the wrong way and finding the reel just turned around and went back out (leaving the main reel for our second dive). In low on air, silt out or just plain stressed situation things could have gone a bit Pete Tong, so hence now my marked lines.