Ecologic Divers - Trip Report August 8-20, 2010

[Gaz]

A Dive Operators Point of View

Of course the diver dont give a rats ass about the Ops point of view they just want the best longest dive spossible when they go on vacation lets face it you paid the money and you want to get the best value for your money and rightly so. This is just an FYI of my experience when I ran My dive operations and how I handled the problem which was a regular one.


Its very difficult as a dive operator when you have a mix of experienced divers and beginners on a boat and especialliy on Ambergris Caye due to the more choppier seas.

i saw a reference to Roatan and the diff there and Ambergris is the sea conditions, on Roatan the conditions are generally calm with diving on the lee side and that gives them an advantage with mixing ex and beginners on the same boat as less divers are likely to become seasick On Ambergris the seas can be quite choppy and the last thing you want is divers to be hanging out in choppy seas waiting for other divers to surface.

The problem as Peter mentioned is when you have less experienced divers on the boat and they use there air more quickly, they end up sitting on a boat in choppy seas for an additional 20-30 minutes while the experienced divers complete there dive, lets face it if you can you want to dive to the max your computer allows and stay as long as possible and thats understandable.

However I have seen it many times where the beginners are puking all over the boat during the additional time and when the divers surface there is a bad vibe on the boat with the sickos being angry they could not get to shore (which is 5 minutes away) and there diving for the day is done as they are too sick to go back out.

Now the dive operator gets it from both sides the experienced divers want the longest bottom times possible and the beginners want to get back to shore instead of bobbing around and getting sick.

So whats the answer for the dive shop to try and keep all of them Happy

Well the answer is easy, send 2 boats with different levels of divers on it, ad that would always be my first choice if I had enough divers but unfortunately that is not always not possible when you only have lets say 4 divers 2 experinced 2 beginners so what can we do to solve it.

What I always did was brief the experienced divers UP FRONT prior to heading out and explain to them the situation and give them there own DM and advise them that they will get into the water first and out last, once we hit the dive site. Since they were experienced they were into the water quickly and did not have to wait as I had given them there own guide so they were in and down within a few minutes.

The beginners always fiddled aound with masks and equipment and ususally took at least an additional 10 minutes before they were ready to decend.

At the end of the beginners dive nearly always 30 minutes-40 minutes and 10 minutes getting back onto the boat they never needed to wait more than 10 minutes for the experieced divers to complete there dive and they would of got close to a 60 minute dive if they were really good on air but most times they were back on the boat after 50 minutes and everyone was happy.

Thats the only way to deal with this situation without running 2 boats its works really well but requires good management and briefing and some understanding on both the experienced divers and beginners but with a bit of communicatin everyone understands and its possible for everyone to have a great dive based on there own experience levels.

Gaz Cooper

 

[driftwood]

No offense taken! I pulled up the e-mail I received from Ecologic about their operations in response to my initial inquiry. Here is my question and their response:

"In terms of the dive time, is there a standard length you aim for or do you base the dive time by air consumption?

The bottom time is about 40 to 45 min"

So, I knew that the time was a little shorter, but to hear the DM say 35-40 minutes made it still even shorter. The person who responded to my inquiry is not a diver so there may be a disconnect between the administrator and the DMs.

Thanks jlevine, didn't want you to think I was questioning your post.

This is the response I got back from ED.

Good morning Jeff : Our normal dive times are 45 to 47 min . That is the dive time all of the dive shops hear use.

Thank you
Shelly


My question had a link to this thread, so ED should know exactly what is being discussed.

From my side of the hill, we are spending good money to get to Belize, stay in Belize and the reason for the trip is to dive in Belize. I just want to have the most fun while I am there.

 

[ertes]

Readings from my dive computer:

1. ED: 38 minutes at Hol Chan (not bad considering strong current)
2. Amigos: 49 max depth: 60
3. Amigos: 50 56
4. Amigos: 46 84
5. Amigos: 49 57
6. Amigos: 49 71
7. Amigos: 57 58
8. Amigos: 63 (night dive at Hol Chan)
9. Amigos: 52 72

 

[Downing]

Of course the diver dont give a rats ass about the Ops point of view...

Owch. That's a bit harsh, Gaz.

I care a lot about the Dive Ops viewpoint, and I think most divers do, too. A happy and profitable dive operator is a better dive operator, and I certainly don't expect them to lose money just to take me diving.

But I shuddered when I saw the post about routine dive times of 35 to 40 minutes, especially if that included a safety stop and exit from the water. By anybody's definition, that's just too short.

I absolutely agree with you that the way to handle it is to communicate with the divers upfront before money changes hands and accomodate the different interests as best you can.

Having said all that, those dive times from Amigos look pretty solid to me. I'm usually ready to cash it in around the 50-55 minute mark regardless of how much air I've got left.

 

[jlevine]

Readings from my dive computer:

1. ED: 38 minutes at Hol Chan (not bad considering strong current)
2. Amigos: 49 max depth: 60
3. Amigos: 50 56
4. Amigos: 46 84
5. Amigos: 49 57
6. Amigos: 49 71
7. Amigos: 57 58
8. Amigos: 63 (night dive at Hol Chan)
9. Amigos: 52 72

Ok...well the one dive you did with Hol Chan is pretty much inline with what I said timewise. I am not familiar with Amigos. Any chance you can write up a trip report? I would sincerely like to hear about your experience with them. Thanks, Ertes!

 

[jlevine]

A Dive Operators Point of View

Of course the diver dont give a rats ass about the Ops point of view they just want the best longest dive spossible when they go on vacation lets face it you paid the money and you want to get the best value for your money and rightly so. This is just an FYI of my experience when I ran My dive operations and how I handled the problem which was a regular one.

Wow...that's a bit strong. Please keep in mind that the bulk of my post on Ecologic Divers was very positive about the staff and the shop.

I do give "a rat's ass" about the Ops point of view. It's their choice about how they run their shop. As a customer, I am giving an FYI on my experience as a customer. This schedule may work very well for some while for others it may not.

 

[jlevine]

Thanks jlevine, didn't want you to think I was questioning your post.

This is the response I got back from ED.

Good morning Jeff : Our normal dive times are 45 to 47 min . That is the dive time all of the dive shops hear use.

Thank you
Shelly

Driftwood,

Thanks for posting this. This agrees with her e-mail to me, assuming that she is including the safety stop.

My overall experience (per my original post) was quite positive. The only concern I raised is with the dive times. It looks like Ertes' did get longer dive times with Amigos (at least by a few minutes).

When it comes down to it, each diver is going to experience diving a bit differently.

I do have one request...regardless of whom you choose as an operator, I'd really like to hear a trip report of your experience.

Have a great vacation!

 

[peterbj7]

I think Gaz was deliberately overstating his point to make the point, and I'm with him on this. Until you've actually run dive trips in the real world you can have no idea how unreasonable and demanding many divers are, starting with demanding a price that's somewhat below cost.

As to separating abilities, it isn't always possible until after you've seen people dive once. Thereafter it becomes much easier, but with today's fashion of being intolerant and often downright hostile towards anyone providing a service, any divers adversely affected on that first dive will have moved on by then.

A lot of it comes down to immaturity, and the idea (deliberately fostered by people like PADI) that diving is totally safe and approachable by anyone, and if the sea's rough it's the operator's fault. I have had people demand to be taken back to base after they shortened their dive because "the surge was too great and visibility too poor". Then when I refuse to do that because other divers are still underwater some have become quite abusive. I also had one girl ignore a very clear dive briefing on a rough day about how to use the ladder after the dive. She deliberately did it her way "because that was the way she had always done it" and then of course complained bitterly when she had a finger crushed. She complained to the police, to PADI, to the BTB (the government body that controls tourism in Belize) and to TripAdvisor, saying that my dive operation was dangerous. I'm glad to say that EVERY other person who was on that dive also wrote to TA and said the briefing was totally explicit and couldn't be clearer, they had all followed it and all had enjoyable dives. But at the time she was a most unpleasant guest.

I can give more horror stories like that but I won't bore you all here. Suffice to say that until you have run a dive operation in a resort environment you haven't seen human nature.

Should have said - dive times are the result of lots of factors, and don't really depend on the operator you choose. It might be that one operator will give the longest dives on one day, and another on another day. Few operators here will have a policy of shortening dives to maintain their schedule (unlike say the Florida Keys, where a strict schedule is or used to be operated by all companies). The corollary to that is that if you are booked on a later dive, treat the departure time as a rough indication only. Most people do all dives in a given day so they aren't affected, but if you turn up for a dive scheduled to leave at 2pm and find the dive boat isn't even back yet from the morning dives, expect a good hour's delay. Without unlimited boats and crew on stand-by in the event of an overrun, this is inevitable. Flexibility and reasonableness on all sides makes for a much more pleasant experience. Remember - once you're here you're on Island time!

 

[jlevine]

Until you've actually run dive trips in the real world you can have no idea how unreasonable and demanding many divers are, starting with demanding a price that's somewhat below cost.

Peter,

You always offer great insight and I do appreciate it.

I agree with pretty much everything you've written. There are many factors involved in running a dive that often go unnoticed.

I brought this whole thing up because the DMs routinely mentioned 35-40 minutes for their dive times. It's their shop. It's their choice. I'm a customer and I make my choices too.

I bear Ecologic Divers no ill will. My original post (from a length perspective) was pretty positive. The only area I objected to was the short dive times. A 35-40 minute dive time is from my perspective less than what I've experienced in the past. I have dove in Aruba, Bonaire, Curacao, Roatan, Puerto Rico, and Belize. Yes, that's not as wide a variety as others on this board, but I can tell you that the dive times in those locations have always been at least 50 minutes not including the safety stop. That's the basis for my comparison. Perhaps in other locations 35-40 minutes is the norm but I haven't seen it.

Again...I am not in "attack mode" here (and I am not saying you are attacking me).

This is just what I experienced.

jsl

 

[Downing]

Well, if Peter and Gaz agree on something then their point of view is definitely worth considering.

But I have a question for both of you or any other operator that wants to chime in: did you ever impose a time limit of only 35 minutes on routine dives? I bet not, but if you did how did that go ever with your customers?

I dived in the Keys for about a week last summer with Conch Republic just south of Key Largo. I honestly don't remember what time limits were imposed, but I'm sure I'd remember if I thought the limits were unreasonably short.

As far as horror stories, probably should be in a different thread but I love reading that stuff so by all means post away.