Easy Penetration Dives

[The Chairman]

Did ya'll know that there is a rating system for whitewater? Yep, each set of rapids can be assigned a number and that number can change depending on flood stage etc. While I would attempt a class 3 or 4, I would not get close to a class 6 anymore.

However, when it comes to wrecks/caves/divethroughs we have but one bit of advice... "Don't do it, unless you have been trained!" As noble as that sounds, many divers perceive it as elitest and over-reactive for many situations. They are curious, and they will poke themselves into a hole just to prove that they can do it and get away with it.

While there are a few divers who are incorrigible, no matter what system you devise, I honestly believe that most divers would like to see a type of rating system. If nothing else it would help them to quantify the risk they are taking, and that would be a great step forward. Living in Florida, I have to make an ethical/moral decision on many dives. I am not cavern/cave certified but the opportunities abound to explore. One of my favorite dives has the "don't pass me if you want to live" signs at 60 ft or so. The bad part is that any diver reading it has already performed 60 ft of penetration. You can not go straight up... you have to angle to get out of there. Technically, 95% of the divers who go down there should not... but hey, it's even "sanctioned" by the state. I was on the Princess Anne a month or so ago... did a swim through. Am I wrong to do these? Possibly, but probably not.

I guess the point I am making is that the individual divers are going to make individual decisions. If we maintain our strict "don't do it" ideology they are going to ignore us in the face of reality. It would be better to quantify these penetrations (if that is even possible) to give them pause about the dangers within. I think if we labeled a hidden danger wreck as such, that just maybe someone who thought it might be "easy" would re-consider.

All that being said... I do beleive in training! I have been invited several times to do some caves and deep wreck penetrations and I have declined. I do not have the training for that.

Dive within your training!
Dive within your buddy's training!
Dive within your limits!
Dive within your buddy's limits!
Be conservative!!!
Seek out knowledge!!!
Get specific training!!!
Diving is opitonal; living is not!

 

[CuriousMe]

I think that a ratings system, similar to the rapids rating system is a great idea.

I to have done swim throughs, with instructors...but I also understand what folks are saying. One of the problems of a lack of trainingis that you don't know when things are starting to look bad. A rating system would really help.

 

[DiveRite-SW]

I can undestand the Rating System approach, and it makes sense in this day and age for us to try and quantify everything and to categorize levels (of stupidity?). But what it does is circumvent, and even give tacit approval, to a concept inherent in the overall basis of what we are talking about.
I don't care what agency a diver got their c-card under (assuming they even got one), it says OPEN-WATER DIVER. It does NOT say "Open-Water Diver, Good To 60 Foot penetration" or Semi-Overhead Environment" or any other weasel-worded approach to bending the rules. It's this simple: If you can look straight up and see anything other than daylite (or the moon), we ain't in Open-Water anymore Toto, and we ain't trained for it. And statistics say we stand a good chance of becoming a statistic.

By rating an overhead dive, it's like rating how difficult it would be for us to get dead. The computer-types have that part figured-out already, it's either a "1" or a "0" in binary language. There is no such thing as "0 & 1/3", either it is or it isn't, no confusion and no in-between. Just like getting dead, there's no middle-ground (well, in most religions anyways).

I appreciate what some folks are trying to do, by making it semi-acceptable for them to do something they are bound-and-determined to do anyways. You don't need me or anyone else to say you can.

So what's stopping you? Go ahead, go in there and get mucked-up and leave the pain for your family to bear. And for the lawyers to sue the facility that allowed an OPEN-WATER DIVER to dive in non-OPEN-WATER. Oh, and don't forget to remind them to sue the people that established the particular rating for the 'death-trap'.

Unless one has a cert-card qualifying them to dive in overhead environments, IT'S DANGEROUS and the diver isn't trained to do it.

Why bother even taking the open-water course to begin-with, for that matter? If someone thinks they can get away with learning to dive as they go along, they probably can learn to cave-dive as they go along....... probably.

sheesh!

 

[MSilvia]

Ronbo's excellent point aside, I think it would be difficult to come up with a rating system that would account for the often rapidly changing conditions in the underwater world. If a given dive is sometimes 80' visibility and swept clear by a moderate current, and at other times 10' vis and covered with redeposited silt, how would you rate it? As an average of the two? It just sounds like an idea that could give even appropriately trained divers a sometimes false sense of security to me. If there is a difficulty rating, I prefer a simple "Caution: Diving in here can kill you" sign.

 

[Tekdiver]

MSilvia makes and excellent point as does ronbo. Another area the rating system proposed overlooks so far, the discussion I have seen only rates one part of the whole equation, the diving environment. In my humble opinion, there are two more equal if not more important factors not addressed.

What about the physical and mental side of the DIVER? Better physical condition has all of the obvious merits. But one that is most often overlooked is a diver’s MENTAL conditioning and current state of mind before, during and after the dive. How would these factors be calculated for a ratings system?

Say a dive team is 2000 feet back in a cave, they’re in a large room, 20 ft. off of the floor, 20 feet from the ceiling and 20 ft. from the walls. Water is crystal clear, all lights are working, plenty of gas and for some reason a team member panics. What now? They’re 2000’ from home. Makes no difference WHY the panic occurred at this point, just that it did.

Anyone who actually does cave and/or wreck penetrations can attest to the fact that more often than not it is a mental game that can get you into or out of trouble if things go awry. Sometimes a diver’s personal “mental games” can cause problems when everything else is 100%. How do you rate the “group” of divers who want to do overheads on every “individual’s” stress and panic thresholds? How do you factor in a diver’s experience and how that plays into stress/panic thresholds for a group?

Much of this discussion centers on diving in overhead environments in shallow quarries in North Texas. Again, in my humble opinion, the reason that many here question why they shouldn’t do those dives is two fold and strictly a mental factor.

One is that there is no perceived danger. “Heck.. it’s only 20 feet deep”, “The plane is only 30 feet long” these types of rationale. But if you mention hundreds or thousands of feet back in a cave or in a wreck at 110 feet there IS a perceived danger to newer or less experienced divers. Last I checked, we could still die in 20 feet of water OR if caught in a 30 foot long tube IF we run out of gas and can’t get to the surface.

Two is MOST divers have not had to deal with catastrophic equipment failures and as such have no appreciation of what they can bring to the table. This is where mental and physical condition, stamina and EXPERIENCE can save you or a team member. Please remember, every word of every post by anyone on this board, or anywhere else for that matter, is mute if you’re dead.

MSilvia mentions a "Caution: Diving in here can kill you" sign. For those of you who have never seen a sign like this, you can check the link below. I have posted a sign commonly seen in Florida caves as posted by a group consisting of the NACD (Nat’l Assoc. for Cave Diving), NSS-CDS(Nat’l Speleological Society – Cave Diving Section) and even PADI. I keep it hanging on my garage wall above my dive gear just to remind me every time I pick my gear up that I am only human.

http://www.scubadillo.org/cavesign.html

jpg is (617K - so you can read every word for yourself)

Marc

 

[Waterlover]

Check out www.iucrr.org accident reports and read the Pickens Mine, Jasper, Georgia report. See how important training is. Both were experienced open water divers. One was an instructor. One is no longer with us. Enjoy your reading. If you don't have the training, don't do it. They had no cave or overhead training.

Ken

 

[ebbtide]

commen sence plays a big role people
but remember you only die once ! and i like the quote under water no one will hear you scream !

 

[Tekdiver]

When I tried to logon to the link Waterlover left it couldn't find the server so I thought I would post another article.
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To the newer guys/gals here please note the references to:"Prominent cave diver", "well-known", "may have stirred up some silt", "must have been pretty low on air", "member of the Board for Florida Speleological Researchers", "former instructor", "well-respected in his field", "did numerous dives at the Andrea Doria shipwreck", "considered by his peers to be one of the best cave divers today"

Anybody say any of that about YOU? Do YOU have ANY of these qualifications? Does he care? I doubt it... HE'S DEAD!

I hope Steve Berman's death will not be in vein!
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To experienced cavers and divers, this received nat'l press and is in the public domain.
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To the article:
http://www.sunone.com/articles/2001-05-09a.shtml

Wednesday, May 9, 2001

Prominent cave diver found dead in Gilchrist
By KATHY CIOTOLA
Sun staff writer
A well-known area cave diver was found dead Tuesday morning after he apparently drowned in Gilchrist County.

Steve Berman, 40, was reported missing to the Gilchrist County Sheriff's Office by other divers at 11 p.m. Monday, sheriff's investigator Bryant Frye said.

Authorities, with the help of divers at the scene, found Berman's body 3,500 feet back in a cave at the Devil's Ear, off the Santa Fe River.

It appears that Berman drowned, though a medical examiner had yet to officially rule on a cause of death Tuesday, Faye said.

Berman may have had a problem in a narrow tunnel back in a cave, diving colleague Lloyd Bailey said.

Although the investigation is ongoing, Bailey said it's his belief that when Berman turned around in the tunnel to come back out, he may have gotten stuck, forcing him to use a lot of air as he worked to break free. He also may have stirred up some silt, which hindered his vision.

"The guy's trying to get back out; he spends a lot of time and effort," Bailey said. "He must have been pretty low on air."

Some of the tunnels in Devil's Ear are craggy, said Bailey, who stopped exploring Devil's Ear's narrow caves after he got stuck years ago.

Berman, of the High Springs area, was a certified [cave] diver and a former [cave] instructor at Ginnie Springs Resort, Bailey said.

He currently was teaching [cave] diving privately and was a member of the Board for Florida Speleological Researchers, which manages a series of caves near Tampa. He also did numerous dives at the Andrea Doria shipwreck off the New Jersey coast.

Berman was well-respected in his field, one of his former students said.

"He was universally liked and respected," said Bryon Hoskins, a staff member at Lloyd Bailey's Scuba shop in Gainesville. "He was probably considered by his peers to be one of the best cave divers today. He was very humble and just a great person."

Since 1960, there have been more than 500 cave diving deaths in Florida, Mexico and the Caribbean alone, according to the San Marcos Area Recovery Team of Texas.

Almost all the deaths were the result of divers violating a set of safety rules, Bailey said.

Most cave divers die because they aren't trained in cave diving; they don't have a continuous guideline to help them get out; they use more than one-third of their air to get in the cave; they dive deeper than 135 feet; they dive alone; or they dive without lights.

Berman dove alone, Bailey said.

"One of the biggest things to emphasize is, you can have all sorts of backups like air and lights, but if you don't have a buddy to back you up and you make a mistake -- and we all make mistakes -- it could cost you your life," Bailey said.



Kathy Ciotola can be reached at 338-3109 or kathy.ciotola@gainesvillesun.com.

 

[indeco]

You did say easy didnt you. Wouldnt that include things like multiple points of exit? Ever been in a wreck in the St lawrence? Most are wide open on the inside, low silt potential and have multiple open hatches.

No generalization is wholy true not even this one. No one answer works for all wrecks. Some need training some dont.

 

[devilfish]

"No one answer works for all wrecks. Some need training some dont."

It's the decision making process based on lack of knowledge that get's divers hurt. The only way to get the knowledge is with proper training.