Easy Penetration Dives

[tchil01]

Originally posted by sumguy
I would never think of doing a cave dive or serious wreck penetration without the proper training.
But...on my last vacation to Mexico, our group did some cenote dives, with most of us having only 30 or so dives under our belts. Guided dives where the guide is in full cave gear, and a 4 to 1 ratio. We stayed in the light zone, and they were nice easy dives. Wouldn't have wanted to miss them due to not having been a certified cavern diver.
Echoing what has already been said, I think it has to depend on the individual's confidence and ability. What might be right for one diver, might not be for another.

P.S. When does an underwater boat become a wreck? We dived on a "wreck" while we were down there, and entered the wheel house, etc., but could always see several ways out. Is this considered wreck diving? (I don't think so.)

I guess I’m a bit confused, as Sumguy sounds too. When I did my OW and AOW, we dove several “attractions” in Dutch Springs. One was a school bus that had cutouts in the roof so there was no overhead environment. Another on was a trolley car and another was a helicopter. Both of these had overhead environments. It was a really busy day at the quarry when we did the trolley car and it was so silted vis was down to about 5 feet. Are these considered “wreck” dives?

Since then, I’ve dived several wrecks off the jersey coast but never did a penetration. I start my wreck external survey and penetration class in two weeks, but was wondering if there is definitions about what a wreck is and what constitutes a penetration.

Thanks
Ty

 

[Lost Yooper]

Remember, a cert. card doesn't necessarily mean squat. I've been around plenty of "certified wreck divers" who I wouldn't even get in the water with, much less enter a wreck with. I don't have a cert. card giving me "permission" to enter a wreck, but I've been in and out of wrecks since I first got certified. IMO, proper gear, experience, and knowledge can SOMETIMES trump a cert. card -- at least as far as wrecks go anyway (which are second nature to me). Cave diving is a bit different, I think.

Regardless, there isn't a plastic certification card out there that is a substitute for common sense. You absolutely must know your abilities and stay within them and don't do anything stupid. It always boils down to what's between your ears, not what's in your wallet.

Mike

 

[TwoBitTxn]

I'm going to try toget some definitions or clarifications at the risk of getting ripped in class.

Popular scuba park in Texas..... Athens...

It has a sunken bus and a sunken Lear type jet. It isn't uncommon for untrained divers to enter one side and or at the front and exit at the back. The whole thing is less than 25 ffw.

Texas Tek... is this what you are referring to?

Is this OK?

Where do you draw the line?

Tom

 

[Drew Sailbum]

An open water diver is not trained to enter an overhead environment. But what qualifies as an "overhead environment" isn't always clear.

In a recent Training Bulletin PADI suggested that swim throughs and archways were appropriate if the overhead obstacle presented a similar obstruction as a boat might obstruct during surfacing. As I recall, they didn't specifically reference wrecks, but I would apply a similar standard for newly certified divers.

 

[Texas Tek-diver]

Hi ya Tom,

First of all, no one should be ripping you in any class when you ask questions about what is or isn't appropriate concerning overhead environments. You should ask questions, that is how you learn from your instructors. There are no stupid questions!

Athens scuba park is a great place to practice the lessons learned from classes that teach you how to penetrate wrecks like buses or airplanes. But only for those people who have been properly taught!

However, the newly certified O/W student should be taught, it's not OK to penetrate these obstacles because they have enough things to concentrate on like buoyancy, etc. I've been there when visibility was less than a foot. Can you imagine someone getting hung-up inside the plane and getting stuck in the tail section. Would this person be able to slip out of his or her gear to get untangled without panicking? It's only 25 feet of water.

What do you think?

 

[TwoBitTxn]

I'll start with a question of liability....

Say a diver gets trapped in the bus at Athens on a night dive while diving with a group. The group doesn't notice and he isn't discovered until the next morning dead. Who is at fault? There are no warnings not to enter the attractions without proper training.

People can be told by an instructor not to enter something like that, but people are going to do what they want to do. Is there any way to make something like that safe(er)?

I am part of a group of divers who has the ear of the owners at Terrell. What advice can we give them to make sure all the UW attractions are safe for all levels of divers?

What is the size definition of an overhead environment? Some of the swim thrus at Coz are 2-3 feet long. Is there a size defintion?

if the overhead obstacle presented a similar obstruction as a boat might obstruct during surfacing

Beam width on a sizeable dive boat can be 6+ feet can't it?

Tom

 

[TexasMike]

Originally posted by Tom Vyles
I am part of a group of divers who has the ear of the owners at Terrell. What advice can we give them to make sure all the UW attractions are safe for all levels of divers

Tom

Excellent question Tom, especially since CSSP is making plans to sink their "shark" swim through (2 tanks measuring 15 feet by 6-ft dia. welded end to end with openings at the shark's "mouth" and hind end).

Essentially this is a "tube" but since it's between 25-30 feet long, it definitely can be classified as an overhead environment.

I know such things make popular sunken dive attractions, but boy do they make me raise the liability related questions. Especially in scuba parks where new divers are known to congregate.

 

[Texas Tek-diver]

Let's step back from the "who is liable" question and step up to the "common sense" issue.

It sounds like to me, the experienced divers are basically opposed to wreck penetrations by novice divers.

They're not opposed to you getting the training or having the experience of wreck diving.

They just want to see that you don't get hurt attempting things that are, for the moment, beyond your level of training. Is that a problem?

The diving community is a very special group of people and we always revel in each others experiences underwater. And we also try to help one another when we can. This is what we are doing right now in trying to get you to understand the situation and to prevent that accident just waiting to happen.

I'm not saying you're going to get hurt at Athens, but the lessons learned or not learned there may get you in over your head experience-wise somewhere else when you least expect it.

Always strive to learn, but pace yourself. There is always a price to pay by being in the fast lane.

 

[TwoBitTxn]

the experienced divers are basically opposed to wreck penetrations by novice divers.

I agree totally. I also believe everyone here encourages taking dive education as far as a person wishes to take it. Caves, caverns, wrecks, what have you....

They just want to see that you don't get hurt attempting things that are, for the moment, beyond your level of training. Is that a problem?

Absolutely not.... but as the powers that be in Florida have had to do with the caves, where do we need to draw the line on protecting divers from themselves. We can say use common sense, and I have enough sense I am not comfortable entering the plane or the bus, but there are plenty others that don't understand the risks or feel there is one.

Tom

 

[DiveRite-SW]

Awww Man. Where do partial posts go when AOL logs me out due to inactivity? I type slow and I guess it decided I'd fallen asleep or something

Anyway, I was working on a response before I was so ruttedly interruded. Thanks Tom for giving me a heads up on the subject.

I was saying that I think the issue is a case of when is enough enough? It's not that we want to restrict people from seeing caves or wrecks because they really are fascinating. It's more a case of learning. Did your parents let you take their car out on a dark rainy night right after you get your driver's license? Probably not, because you didn't have enough experience and practice yet, right? Same for anything that takes a little bit of common sense to recognize the inherent danger. Were you able to just go out and buy your scuba gear? Probably not, you had to show some kind of record of training and experience first. Same for 0H diving.

Actually, the free spirit in me wants to say “Sure go-ahead, have a blast in that wreck or cave” but the part of me that pays medical insurance premiums and local official’s search and rescue (or possibly body-recovery) salaries wants to say “Now wait just a minute, that's my money you’re going to waste, and possibly endanger the lives of others who were trying to save (or recover) your sorry butt”. Not to mention the risk of giving diving an even worse name than it already does in a lot of circles.

It's the person that pokes a sleeping dog and gets away with it, and then pokes a bigger one and gets away with that, and then goes on poking bears. Or someone that takes just one sip of alcohol, and next time takes a guzzle, and next time drains the bottle (We're not talking about animal-abuse or booze here, just moderation and drawing the line with anything). Where does it end? When does it get dangerous? Hey! Maybe we should just let Darwin do his thing and wait for the problem to solve itself.

I have seen a very benign overhead dive turn into a nightmare situation JUST LIKE THAT. What started out really fun turned really bad really quick. No warning, no nothing. Someone that thinks they can do ok in an open wreck or a big cavern has no idea how bad it can be an instant. They have no frame of reference to fall back on to decide when it is about to hit the fan, nor do they have the skills and training to get themselves and possibly their buddy to out of the jam when it does hit.

If you don't want to get bit, don’t go near dogs. If you don’t want to chance becoming an alcoholic, never take a drink. If you don't want to get lost in a cave/wreck, don't go in one.

Bottom-line? We can't keep everyone from going what they will do anyway, all we can do is tell people not to do something that may turn out to be something they never ever imagined. So to burden the rest of us with results of the ill-thought antics of a few, DON’T DO IT WITHOUT PROPER TRAINING, and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. (Hey you may even live to get to see Carnegie Hall (insert rimshot here)).

Your question is a good one, Tom, and I like that you are thinking of others and their potential liability. Yes, a cave/wreck is a huge Attractive Nuisance, but someone has to take the stand and say “let's Do It Right!” (oops, wrong thread. But you know what I mean). If we practice what we preach eventually (okay ‘maybe’) we’ll get the message across to the knuckleheads out there. Then maybe the Terrells of the world will have cheaper insurance policies. Interim solution? Don't know, maybe encourage wreck/cave training even more like we do with Night or EAN or navigation courses.

You know, this also brings up the issue of “taking some responsibility for your own actions” but I bet AOL is about to shut me off again.
Maybe later.