Ear drops to help equalize?
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It would help if Bill would include his credentials in his profile and/or signature. Additionally BKP has no way of knowing that Bill is an experienced diver, or even if he has an OW card - which Bill could put in his profile if he wanted his suggestions taken seriously. He may be right virtually all the time but BKP or I have no way of knowing all that.
I can't imagine any way that alcohol in "Swimmers Ear" could help equalizing - altho it or alcohol/vinegar mix before and after dives may well be a good idea. I keep the latter in old "Swimmers Ear" bottles in my mask boxes and use it before and after. I don't know about the before, but I do believe the after is a very good idea - even tho the US Navy and many Dive Docs suggest 5 minutes on each side each day after.
I can't imagine any way that alcohol in "Swimmers Ear" could help equalizing - altho it or alcohol/vinegar mix before and after dives may well be a good idea. I keep the latter in old "Swimmers Ear" bottles in my mask boxes and use it before and after. I don't know about the before, but I do believe the after is a very good idea - even tho the US Navy and many Dive Docs suggest 5 minutes on each side each day after.
Papa_Bear
Contributor
Just my story! I had a very bad case of infection in both ears this last November in Fiji! Until I could get meds it was bad! I left my ear beer in my bathroom 7000 miles away and no on, yes no one had swimmers ear! I got vinegar from the kitchen and vodka from the bar, but it was too late due to the pigs kept along their streams! Anyway with both ears swollen shut and 90% deaf, I had no trouble at all equalizing at any depth in either direction! One has nothing to do with the other for me! 
BillP
Senior Member
I claim no special qualifications on this board, and frankly Don I'm concerned that you put too much stock in what people say about themselves rather than in the content of their posts. How do you verfiy those credentials?
For example, you (and other readers) might look at BKP's profile and see that he has 1000+ posts on the board, he says he has NAUI OW, AOW, Nitrox, PADI Rescue, EFR, and DAN O2, certifications, and he claims 20,000+ dives (counting showers/baths?) and assume from that that he's quite the trustworthy poster- knowledgeable in all aspects of ear equalization, eh?
I, on the other hand, questioned the content of his post anyway- despite the "credentials" in his profile- based on what the post said. I feel that the original poster and the other readers of this forum deserved to have his assertions questioned (and BKP deserved the chance to clarify and/or retract them) to avoid being inappropriately swayed by his "credentials".
Again, sorry if I offended. Just wanted to be clear, not rude.
ArcticDiver
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Ok fine Bill, your choice. I said it would help; it's certainly not required.
PADI Rescue Diver #0708081688 (for PADI Rescue, OW, and AOW are pre-reqs)
DAN 02 Diver #0705032059
EFR #0704017059
NAUI Nitrox, OW, and AOW don't present Diver #s, as PADI does, however, I'll be happy to send you scans of the c-cards, as well as instructor #s.
The showers and baths you'll just have to take my word for...
Feel free to do the necessary research to validate, if you feel so inclined...
Never claimed to be a medico of ANY capacity, including that of equalization, especially in light of something as benign as alcohol ear drops.
Now, if you'd care to post, or just offer the existence of your board certification for Diving/Undersea and Hyperbaric Medicine, since you *are* apparently implicitly passing yourself off as 'in the know' on a number of dive medicine threads, I'll be happy to call it a day...
You went well beyond trying to clarify. You *were* rude (actually, pedantic comes to mind... but 'rude' works).
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BillP
Senior Member
Hi BKP:
I didn't mean for it to sound like I was questioning your certifications- they're impressive. I was just pointing out to Don that an impressive list of claimed credentials for the poster doesn't necessarily indicate that the post is accurate. (Like may people, he apparently finds "credentials" and posting history important on the Internet, where I tend to dismiss them, depending on the quality of the information posted.) I would want you and Don to question my posts if they seemed to contain inaccurate information, even if I did give impressive credentials. There are all kinds of people on the Internet, and some who claim (and even have) credentials write drivel. There have been posters on this diving science forum with long lists of certifications and training (even medical training/certification/licensing) who dispense very questionable information IMHO, and there are new divers with no special training (but with a ton of common sense) who give excellent advice. In some ways it's too easy for just anyone to give medical advice on the Internet. I recommend to you and Don that you not put too much stock in "credentials" on a message board. Let the post stand on its own and see if it has legs. I'm happy to have my posts stand on their own.
Apparently you have read my posts on the board. I could claim to be the "Dan" that DAN was named for and say that I invented the Aqualung before Jacques Cousteau was born and still expect the information in those posts to stand on its own. In this thread I see where you have questioned me repeatedly, but while I get the impression that you don't agree with (or fully understand?) my points (hence my repetition- sorry) I don't see where you've specifically challenged their accuracy. Please do... and any information that I've posted in any other thread too. If you think that I've posted unclear, inaccurate, or misleading information I want you to question it. It will give me a chance to explain it if unclear or misleading (even if I have to do it more than once) or correct it if wrong (and learn from the experience). Please don't "call it a day" just because I tell you that my real name is "Scripps" and I own that oceanographic institute; call it a day when you've corrected an obvious error on the board. You've read my posts and questioned my credentials to post, but please tell me where I've posted unclear/inaccurate/misleading information. That is not a challenge; it is a request. I don't mind finding out that I was wrong (although none of us likes being wrong, eh? ;-)- I learn from it.
As for alcohol ear drops being benign, yeah they are. They probably wouldn't hurt, beyond being ineffective. I can't think of how they'd help equalizing a normal ear beyond the placebo effect, but the placebo effect can be a very effective medicine. But one problem with suggesting that otherwise ineffective treatments really work is that people can be harmed by missing out on truly effective remedies. Perhaps not in this particular case, but it can matter. In this diving science forum I prefer to stick to the science. If others prefer mysticism, c'est la vie... There is no rational reason to believe that ear drops will help equalizing in an otherwise normal ear canal, so I (clearly?) think that it's inappropriate to suggest that they're effective in science forum (yeah, that's MHO). If they help you- SUPER! I'm happy for you. But personally I wouldn't go so far as to try to imply that they'd be effective for someone else. I'd be concerned that someone might point out the flaws in my logic. (Yeah, that's repetitious, but you brought it up once again leading me to believe perhaps I haven't made the point clear.)
I know that you find me "pedantic", but frankly I have the impression that so far you just don't "get it". No, it's not an Earth shattering point, but as I'm sure that you can tell I feel that accuracy on this medical forum is important. You seem like a bright guy, so if it hasn't clicked with you yet, I'm concerned that I might not have have been clear to others- so I repeat and restate (hopefully more clearly). If you find that going "well beyond trying to clarify", sorry, but I must say that my point still doesn't seem clear to you yet as you seem to keep trying to justify your post. (Sorry, I don't think that's possible.) At the risk of irritating you further with more repetition I'll apologize a third time if you found me rude. I'll be happy to "call it a day" when you've given me a chance to clarify or correct (to your satisfaction) any point that I've made that you disagree with, and you stop questioning/attacking me personally.
Just my 2¢
(A long enough novellette for you? ;-)
I didn't mean for it to sound like I was questioning your certifications- they're impressive. I was just pointing out to Don that an impressive list of claimed credentials for the poster doesn't necessarily indicate that the post is accurate. (Like may people, he apparently finds "credentials" and posting history important on the Internet, where I tend to dismiss them, depending on the quality of the information posted.) I would want you and Don to question my posts if they seemed to contain inaccurate information, even if I did give impressive credentials. There are all kinds of people on the Internet, and some who claim (and even have) credentials write drivel. There have been posters on this diving science forum with long lists of certifications and training (even medical training/certification/licensing) who dispense very questionable information IMHO, and there are new divers with no special training (but with a ton of common sense) who give excellent advice. In some ways it's too easy for just anyone to give medical advice on the Internet. I recommend to you and Don that you not put too much stock in "credentials" on a message board. Let the post stand on its own and see if it has legs. I'm happy to have my posts stand on their own.
Apparently you have read my posts on the board. I could claim to be the "Dan" that DAN was named for and say that I invented the Aqualung before Jacques Cousteau was born and still expect the information in those posts to stand on its own. In this thread I see where you have questioned me repeatedly, but while I get the impression that you don't agree with (or fully understand?) my points (hence my repetition- sorry) I don't see where you've specifically challenged their accuracy. Please do... and any information that I've posted in any other thread too. If you think that I've posted unclear, inaccurate, or misleading information I want you to question it. It will give me a chance to explain it if unclear or misleading (even if I have to do it more than once) or correct it if wrong (and learn from the experience). Please don't "call it a day" just because I tell you that my real name is "Scripps" and I own that oceanographic institute; call it a day when you've corrected an obvious error on the board. You've read my posts and questioned my credentials to post, but please tell me where I've posted unclear/inaccurate/misleading information. That is not a challenge; it is a request. I don't mind finding out that I was wrong (although none of us likes being wrong, eh? ;-)- I learn from it.
As for alcohol ear drops being benign, yeah they are. They probably wouldn't hurt, beyond being ineffective. I can't think of how they'd help equalizing a normal ear beyond the placebo effect, but the placebo effect can be a very effective medicine. But one problem with suggesting that otherwise ineffective treatments really work is that people can be harmed by missing out on truly effective remedies. Perhaps not in this particular case, but it can matter. In this diving science forum I prefer to stick to the science. If others prefer mysticism, c'est la vie... There is no rational reason to believe that ear drops will help equalizing in an otherwise normal ear canal, so I (clearly?) think that it's inappropriate to suggest that they're effective in science forum (yeah, that's MHO). If they help you- SUPER! I'm happy for you. But personally I wouldn't go so far as to try to imply that they'd be effective for someone else. I'd be concerned that someone might point out the flaws in my logic. (Yeah, that's repetitious, but you brought it up once again leading me to believe perhaps I haven't made the point clear.)
I know that you find me "pedantic", but frankly I have the impression that so far you just don't "get it". No, it's not an Earth shattering point, but as I'm sure that you can tell I feel that accuracy on this medical forum is important. You seem like a bright guy, so if it hasn't clicked with you yet, I'm concerned that I might not have have been clear to others- so I repeat and restate (hopefully more clearly). If you find that going "well beyond trying to clarify", sorry, but I must say that my point still doesn't seem clear to you yet as you seem to keep trying to justify your post. (Sorry, I don't think that's possible.) At the risk of irritating you further with more repetition I'll apologize a third time if you found me rude. I'll be happy to "call it a day" when you've given me a chance to clarify or correct (to your satisfaction) any point that I've made that you disagree with, and you stop questioning/attacking me personally.
Just my 2¢
(A long enough novellette for you? ;-)
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To those following this thread:
IMHO, BillP has made a number of good points and observations, including an excellent extended discussion of "credentials."
I'd like to take this opportunity to focus briefly on his remark, "No, it's not an Earth shattering point, but as I'm sure that you can tell I feel that accuracy on this medical forum is important." My comments are of a general sort and not in any way directly aimed at BKP.
The amount of outright misinformation and highly questionable advice that appears on the Diving Medicine forum is nothing short of shocking, not to mention the simply annoying drivel and off-topic asides. It is common for recommendations for treatment to precede the establishment of a reasoned working diagnosis (and incidentally this occurs with alarming frequency where the ear is involved), and on occasion information is posted that poses a threat to the health and welfare of the diver. Regarding the ear, recommendations of this, that or the other treatment are offered before one knows whether the problem is in the inner, middle or outer ear. It makes rather a big difference. And even after diagnosis, unproven and even quackish remedies are offered. The use of "ear candles" is a good example.
I simply don't understand how posters who had a SCUBA diving great aunt with diabetes can fancy themselves experts on the topic or who once had a headache and therefore consider themselves knowledgeable in diving headaches. I've taken a few pictures in my life, but somehow am able to refrain from posting all manner of nonsense on the photography forum.
The Diving Medicine forum addresses issues of great importance to health and medical well-being of divers. One should be fully aware of this before contributing to its threads.
Regards,
DocVikingo
IMHO, BillP has made a number of good points and observations, including an excellent extended discussion of "credentials."
I'd like to take this opportunity to focus briefly on his remark, "No, it's not an Earth shattering point, but as I'm sure that you can tell I feel that accuracy on this medical forum is important." My comments are of a general sort and not in any way directly aimed at BKP.
The amount of outright misinformation and highly questionable advice that appears on the Diving Medicine forum is nothing short of shocking, not to mention the simply annoying drivel and off-topic asides. It is common for recommendations for treatment to precede the establishment of a reasoned working diagnosis (and incidentally this occurs with alarming frequency where the ear is involved), and on occasion information is posted that poses a threat to the health and welfare of the diver. Regarding the ear, recommendations of this, that or the other treatment are offered before one knows whether the problem is in the inner, middle or outer ear. It makes rather a big difference. And even after diagnosis, unproven and even quackish remedies are offered. The use of "ear candles" is a good example.
I simply don't understand how posters who had a SCUBA diving great aunt with diabetes can fancy themselves experts on the topic or who once had a headache and therefore consider themselves knowledgeable in diving headaches. I've taken a few pictures in my life, but somehow am able to refrain from posting all manner of nonsense on the photography forum.
The Diving Medicine forum addresses issues of great importance to health and medical well-being of divers. One should be fully aware of this before contributing to its threads.
Regards,
DocVikingo
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