Dunderburg

[tbeindit]

Wasn't trying to piss anyone off. I was going back to the post that started the downward trend, and owned the accountability.

My communication is always to the point, sometimes to a fault. I tried to go back and clarify my statements.

I'm bowing out of the conversation. I wish every safe and happy diving.

Ok, no problem. I wish you good diving as well, I think the reason it caused so much "controversy" is because challenging a diver's safety, skill, training, equipment, and planning is a pretty big statement.
Obviously you did not challenge all of these things, a lot of them rose later along the line, but most divers hold these things close to their heart to put it simply everyone wants to have a fun and safe dive, nobody wants to get hurt, or feel like their at risk to get hurt.

 

[ScubaInChicago]

I did a chartered wreck dive in Florida a while ago to the Antila at 130' on a single AL80 before I knew any better. There were at least eight of us doing the dive and everyone had no more than the standard 77.4 Cf of air. It was a case of everyone jumping off a cliff and deciding to follow. Me and my buddy spent 13 minutes at the bottom, 1 minute deep stop at 65', and 3 min. safety stop at 20' and 2 at 10'. I ended up on the boat with 450-500 PSI and thought that the dive couldn't have been better. Now I know, we didn't have enough gas for both of us to surface in case of a failure, no pony/stage/redundant air supply, very strong currents, and pushed the max of NDL's.

I praise you guys in having a redundant air supply and appears that there was a gas plan. I don't think that diving to 133' is a big deal at all, even the PADI dive tables show how much time you can spend down to 140'. I'll assume PADI figures people may fall of the edge of 130' a few feet at some time in their sport diving and only requires the 3 min safety stop which is standard regardless. I hope you guys had fun and would recommend an intro to tech course which is an eye opener to many philosophy's without making a full faith leap to tech. Keep us posted with more pictures.

 

[CDNScubaMoose]

I've been following this thread since it started, mainly because this wreck is on my list of must dive and hopefully in the near future. I was always led to believe that it was on the deeper side and was surprised to read that you were able to do most of your dive within 130'.

That said, I also could appreciate where some of the posters were coming from when questioning the dive plan. Over the last couple of years, I have started taking courses that most people would consider "technical courses". I always thought that I knew a considerable amount about diving and although I was familar with many of the concepts that were taught in the course, it was some of the smaller details concerning the why's and how's of things that were most beneficial to me. Don't get me wrong - I am not saying your dive plan was unsafe or that you should have technical training to do this dive ... what I'm saying is something that is often mentioned on this board and others: "You don't know what you don't know". However, I think if some of these posters could have done a better job in communicating their concerns or questions since I can't blame the participants in this dive for "getting their backs up" with the tone of some of those posts.

At some point, someone had asked for what the definition of a technical dive and/or diver was. Of course it is a very grey line and IMHO it comes down to personal risk tolerance (deco, cold, vis, overhead, and I would suggest narcosis as well should all be considered). Last night I dove with a new diver that had only 4 dives under his belt (in other words - just his cert dives). We carpooled up to the site and on the way back he asked me what I considered the hardest thing to master as a recreational diver - my answer (I had to think about it for a few seconds), was "to know your own limitations". I pointed out that we all have egos and it can be a challenge to check those egos at time and to question our own abilities.

I have been lucky to have some great mentors in my dive career (along with some important learning experiences) and I am a firm believer in personal responsibility when it comes to diving, which it sounds like the divers on this dive had and I commend you for that. My only question is, and it is an honest question (not trolling here) is I would like to know if their profiles on this site are accurate and up to date. The reason I ask is at some point one or both of them mentioned they have been working up to this dive for the last few years. With one profile listing 50-99 dives and being certified for 4 years with some warm water dives and the other in the 200-499 dives with 20+ years ... IMHO that isn't a pile of experience although SB profiles are often not updated and not enough detail in some of the profiles ... it is entirely possible both of them have knocked off 50-75 dives this year with a bunch of deep ones. Hence why I ask - not going to make any assumptions on this.

Thanks for sharing the pictures - you've definitely got me looking forward to when I get to visit this amazing wreck.

 

[tbeindit]

I've been following this thread since it started, mainly because this wreck is on my list of must dive and hopefully in the near future. I was always led to believe that it was on the deeper side and was surprised to read that you were able to do most of your dive within 130'.

That said, I also could appreciate where some of the posters were coming from when questioning the dive plan. Over the last couple of years, I have started taking courses that most people would consider "technical courses". I always thought that I knew a considerable amount about diving and although I was familar with many of the concepts that were taught in the course, it was some of the smaller details concerning the why's and how's of things that were most beneficial to me. Don't get me wrong - I am not saying your dive plan was unsafe or that you should have technical training to do this dive ... what I'm saying is something that is often mentioned on this board and others: "You don't know what you don't know". However, I think if some of these posters could have done a better job in communicating their concerns or questions since I can't blame the participants in this dive for "getting their backs up" with the tone of some of those posts.

At some point, someone had asked for what the definition of a technical dive and/or diver was. Of course it is a very grey line and IMHO it comes down to personal risk tolerance (deco, cold, vis, overhead, and I would suggest narcosis as well should all be considered). Last night I dove with a new diver that had only 4 dives under his belt (in other words - just his cert dives). We carpooled up to the site and on the way back he asked me what I considered the hardest thing to master as a recreational diver - my answer (I had to think about it for a few seconds), was "to know your own limitations". I pointed out that we all have egos and it can be a challenge to check those egos at time and to question our own abilities.

I have been lucky to have some great mentors in my dive career (along with some important learning experiences) and I am a firm believer in personal responsibility when it comes to diving, which it sounds like the divers on this dive had and I commend you for that. My only question is, and it is an honest question (not trolling here) is I would like to know if their profiles on this site are accurate and up to date. The reason I ask is at some point one or both of them mentioned they have been working up to this dive for the last few years. With one profile listing 50-99 dives and being certified for 4 years with some warm water dives and the other in the 200-499 dives with 20+ years ... IMHO that isn't a pile of experience although SB profiles are often not updated and not enough detail in some of the profiles ... it is entirely possible both of them have knocked off 50-75 dives this year with a bunch of deep ones. Hence why I ask - not going to make any assumptions on this.

Thanks for sharing the pictures - you've definitely got me looking forward to when I get to visit this amazing wreck.

Good way of stating it. I agree on the point of personal limitations. As for my diving past, the minority of my dives are in warm water, just about all of them have been done out on the Great Lakes in the cold water. I'm very familiar with the enviornment.

 

[CMAN]

I too agree on the point of personal limitations and think that was an excellent answer that you gave the newbie. As for "experience", I can assure you that Sitdown248 diving skills are top-notch otherwise I wouldn't have done these dives. I know some divers that have hundreds of dives and I wouldn't even consider doing this type of diving with them (including the Eli Strong) so numbers don't always tell the whole story.

 

[Riverrat Dave]

Well you were right CMAN, this was an interesting read, it's amazing how your wanting to share an experience can turn into such a charged debate.
Without even knowing who you are or what you've experienced these folks are off to the races, well, I think they spend too much time trolling for trouble.

Nice picture and keep them comming.