Dumbing down of scuba certification courses (PADI) - what have we missed?

[D_B]

Online books and such are OK ... what is the difference between that and a hard book if an instructor reviews what you have learned and is satisfied that you did learn it?
Pool sessions will remain .. no one knows how they will react to breathing under water without doing it, much less any problem solving skills.

Agency's break training up into smaller, more affordable (and more attractive) bites.
I remember how stressed I was over the simple and few (compared to the past) requirements for OW, the book and in the water, it seamed like there was much to learn and it is all "so important" ... I was thinking the whole time it is kinda dangerous to do the wrong thing.

I can understand and I can see the need to do it that way ... you do have an option to train more and it is (was to me) suggested that you do so if you like diving .. of course that just gets the nay sayers to say something about another dollar in
.. you can't have it both ways, affordable or extensive .. at least you have options now ... what do you think an all inclusive training program , all the way up to, including Rescue and O2 would cost now?

 

[The Chairman]

What you did was to go to a scam program and act like it is legitimate... ie that the sky is INDEED falling. There seems to be ONE shop that might be using them, and yet they STILL referred to their students doing pool sessions. That's a far, FAR cry from what you are suggesting.

 

[The Kraken]

I gave a quick look at the web site, and, just on the surface (no double entendre intended) it looks as if the student will end up paying twice for a basic open water course.

There may be some, but I'm not aware of any dive shops in the Atlanta area that break their course costs down between academic and practical portions of the class.

the K

 

[3000psi]

What you did was to go to a scam program and act like it is legitimate... ie that the sky is INDEED falling. There seems to be ONE shop that might be using them, and yet they STILL referred to their students doing pool sessions. That's a far, FAR cry from what you are suggesting.

What I suggested was MY vision of what the future of diving will look like in ten or so years. I then described a program that is currently available using the lowest common denominators taken from their site which closely mirrors what I describe. Reread the threads as I remember at least two responses accepting their referrals. And neither of us know for sure how many instructors might accept it. Your argument above about one "STILL referred to their students doing pool sessions" is a red herring as I never said one could not require more.

Let me set you up with an example that will match my original statement. A person takes the on-line test, passes and receives a referral from. While on a cruise he takes four "Discover Scuba Excursions" like this one:

Discover Scuba Diving with Davy Jones Diving - Have fun on a try-dive in Gran Canaria

The instructor (each could be different) then signs the divers logbook & referral form stating they completed an excursion dive. Upon returning home the diver mails proof back to the SDA and receives a c-card back. As you can see it is possible to avoid lengthy pool sessions with this example.

I doubt the card would even be questioned at a dive resort and even if it was a simple checkout dive would probably be sufficient to pass muster.

As far as it being a scam, if your definition includes anyone making a false claim, then they are. But he is legit on some level as at least a couple here vouch for it and who know how many more.

 

[The Chairman]

Your argument above about one "STILL referred to their students doing pool sessions" is a red herring as I never said one could not require more.

Negative. You predicated your "vision" on there being NO pool sessions. None, nada, squat. Shops requiring POOL sessions blows a huge hole in your conspiracy theory here.

As far as it being a scam, if your definition includes anyone making a false claim, then they are. But he is legit on some level as at least a couple here vouch for it and who know how many more.

There is no legitimacy here. The RSTC and all of the Scuba agencies have decried this guy. Let's at LEAST stick to members of the RSTC (which technically excludes NAUI) or at least those programs recognized by RSTC as meeting the minimum requirements.

You could create the "3000psi School of Underwater Haberdashery" (3SUH) and require absolutely NO dives just to create the illusion that somehow your tainted view of the future has merit. That would be tantamount to trashing Harvard because you have compared them to "Edison's Online MBA" (The link has been disabled as it is viral).

I'll be waiting the next "Sky is Falling" update...

 

[3000psi]

Negative. You predicated your "vision" on there being NO pool sessions. None, nada, squat. Shops requiring POOL sessions blows a huge hole in your conspiracy theory here.

Care to produce the quote where I said no pools sessions would be required AS IT RELATES TO YOUR EXAMPLE. And what makes it a conspiracy theory? I am merely drawing conclusions as to what the sport is moving to if it continues to follow the natural progression it has through today.

There is no legitimacy here. The RSTC and all of the Scuba agencies have decried this guy.

I'm assuming you can point me to your sources for this. Otherwise it is just conjecture. Maybe you should just list those you can substantiate rather than use the term "all of the SCUBA agencies".

Let's at LEAST stick to members of the RSTC (which technically excludes NAUI) or at least those programs recognized by RSTC as meeting the minimum requirements.

If a dive resort permits me access to air and their boats for diving with a SDA certification card do I really care, as a consumer, whether RSTC or NAUI or any of the other alphabet soup agencies recognize it ?

I'll be waiting the next "Sky is Falling" update...

As for the "Sky is Falling" comments you might try to find a more appropriate analogy. I do not feel the industry is at a point now or in the future of ever going away. Although you seem to have some concerns about the waning interest I can foresee nothing in the future diminishing the attraction and draw to explore the underwater world. Do I think in ten years or more that someone that gets a new c-card will be required to have learned less skills than they do today. Absolutely. Over the last forty years it has been the progression of things why should it not continue ? Do I think this will be our downfall ? Hardly.

I'm just trying to follow the logic. The industry seems to be moving to accepting online instruction for academics. Passing a test (which I am assuming should gauge ones grasp of what he learned) validates this learning. If Thalassomania decide to produce an online course that went above and beyond anything seen today and provided it free of charge allowing a student to pass a test given by an LDS why should it be rejected ? If I checked out a library book on diving, read it and then walked into the LDS and aced their test why should I have to pay extra for an online course or pay to set through hours of lectures and purchase study materials ? Haven't I just demonstrated my knowledge to the same satisfaction you require of your students ? I guess I am just trying to understand how someone would respond without making it seem money legitimized the training.

Let me finally say, as long as at least one agency allows an instructor to teach above the minimum standards I will not care what the rest of the industry does, how convenient they make it to get a c-card or how much they dumb it down.

 

[The Chairman]

Care to produce the quote where I said no pools sessions would be required AS IT RELATES TO YOUR EXAMPLE.

You mean, like this one?

No pool sessions even required.

And what makes it a conspiracy theory? I am merely drawing conclusions as to what the sport is moving to if it continues to follow the natural progression it has through today.

Your argumentum ad absurdium falls way short of being anything more than hysteria.

I'm assuming you can point me to your sources for this. Otherwise it is just conjecture. Maybe you should just list those you can substantiate rather than use the term "all of the SCUBA agencies".

As you wish: WRSTC News

RSTC Members State their Positions regarding Agency-Neutral On-line Training

At a recent meeting, the members of the Recreational Scuba Training Council determined it was important to provide collective clarification regarding agency-neutral on-line training programs.
Over the past two to three years a number of websites not affiliated with a training agency have launched on-line scuba training programs. On these sites, the customer is lead to believe that all training agencies will accept these programs to meet their academic requirements for scuba training. This is not correct. Because of concerns about the educational validity of these programs and the inability to monitor the quality of education and services, as well as liability and insurance issues, each RSTC member organization has independently determined it cannot accept these non-affiliated training programs to meet its academic requirements.
Before customers sign up for any on-line training program, they should first check with the retail store, instructor or training agency they wish to receive certification through to verify if that on-line program is acceptable for meeting the training agency's requirements.

To whit, the web site YOU CITED was the impetus for the WRSTC's statement.

If a dive resort permits me access to air and their boats for diving with a SDA certification card do I really care, as a consumer, whether RSTC or NAUI or any of the other alphabet soup agencies recognize it ?

What a HUGE "if". You have yet to show one. However, I am certain that you could simply create your very own 3SUH Certification Card and have the same results. It's a another Red Herring.

As for the "Sky is Falling" comments you might try to find a more appropriate analogy.

What would you suggest? The Ocean is draining?

I do not feel the industry is at a point now or in the future of ever going away.

Open your eyes! Large portions of our business have indeed gone "under" and are suffering due to the current economic climate. Making learning to dive HARDER or more DIFFICULT in any respect will probably have huge ripple effects on the entire industry.

I'm just trying to follow the logic. The industry seems to be moving to accepting online instruction for academics. Passing a test (which I am assuming should gauge ones grasp of what he learned) validates this learning. If Thalassomania decide to produce an online course that went above and beyond anything seen today and provided it free of charge allowing a student to pass a test given by an LDS why should it be rejected ?

He doesn't need either you or I to give him permission. I would suggest working through the RSTC if he wants credibility.

If I checked out a library book on diving, read it and then walked into the LDS and aced their test why should I have to pay extra for an online course or pay to set through hours of lectures and purchase study materials ? Haven't I just demonstrated my knowledge to the same satisfaction you require of your students ? I guess I am just trying to understand how someone would respond without making it seem money legitimized the training.

That was precisely how I was certified. I read the book and passed the exam. Then we hit the pool and then OW. I had no lectures, and I understood far more about the physics of diving than my instructor EVER could grasp.

 

[3000psi]

Open your eyes! Large portions of our business have indeed gone "under" and are suffering due to the current economic climate. Making learning to dive HARDER or more DIFFICULT in any respect will probably have huge ripple effects on the entire industry.

Sounds vaguely like a "Sky is falling" comment.
So then why would you be against SDA's or any similar approach since it could reach even more people in these tough times ?

 

[The Chairman]

Sounds vaguely like a "Sky is falling" comment.
So then why would you be against SDA's or any similar approach since it could reach even more people in these tough times ?

Feel free to utilize them as you wish. Have fun!

 

[cooperscuba]

If we were talking about agencies teaching people to drive cars, rather than diving ...

Once upon a time agencies not only expected you to know how to drive but also how the internal combustıon engine worked and this was good, except some people didn`t care how the engine worked and just wanted to get from A to B. These people had to make do with public transport and the grace of their mechanically-minded friends who had the inclination or determination to learn to drive.

Eventually some agencies said "Hey, let`s just teach people how to get from A to B, how to park and what to do in an emergency. If they want to know how the internal combustion engine works, they can do a night class or something".

Other agencies went "Pha! These drivers are so poor, not only do they don`t understand the internal combustion engine, they can`t even field strip and repair it with masking tape and cable ties - Let us thumb our collective noses at them and bask in our obvious superiority".

This, in essence, is dumbing down.