DUI Weight and Trim

[Derek S]

If you get a heavy plate and a weighted STA, you can have say 16 pounds invested in the backplate setup itself, so you'd only have to keep a 10 lb belt on. A 10 lb belt is barely noticeable.

That sounds like a great compromise.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

I'm watching and studying your comments. I'm thinking that both the BC and the Diver need to be as close to neutral as possible. Of course allowing for the changes due to compression and air consumption. But if you know and understand these dynamic changes that occur during diving you should be able to balance everything. My problem lies in the difficulty to keep the darn belt on when I'm wearing my 7mm farmer john and feeling like the pilsbury dough boy.

Jerry,

There are a number of fundamental differences between recreational and technical diving. One of them, among many, is that there are very few situations in an overhead environment (excluding some extreme caving involving pushing a single bottle ahead of you, etc...) where you want to remove your equipment. The last thing you want to do, generally speaking, at 250' is take off your rig.

Removable or ditchable weight is not an issue in overhead environments. IMHO, its over-rated in recreational diving as well. As Gary noted, most divers in the gravest extreme don't ditch weights anyway, because they panic, and if they do, they cannot control their ascent rate because now they are ridiculously bouyant. The only place to ditch weights in recreational diving is when the diver is already on the surface, after some unintended adventure. (Even "bringing an unconscious diver to the surface" in the textbooks suggests to drop the divers weight AT the surface, not at depth.)

If you need a weightbelt to properly trim yourself out, fine...wear one. But don't get carried away trying to ensure you have ditchable weight for your fundies course - you won't be removing and replacing your rig (I promise).

As the other guys have already said, if you need 26 lbs a much better option would be to go with a heavy plate (FredT makes them in 6, 9, 12, and 15 lbs) and either a V-weight (which fits between the two tanks in a set of doubles) or a P-weight (also called a channel weight because it fits into the channel of the plate). Then you supplement as needed with a much lighter and more managable weightbelt.

FredT also supplies trim weights for plates that you get from him. For example, I own a 12 lb 1/4" SS plate from Fred with a 7# P-weight that Fred poured to fit my plate. If you went with something similar this would put 19 lbs flat against your back, where it belongs. Tobin (DSS), also on this board, also offers heavy plates with removable panels. Halcyon offers V-weights in 8 and 11 lbs.

You'll also find that the type of undergarment you use impacts on your bouyancy, and you'll learn to love diving your drysuit real tight...

A 26# weightbelt is not likely to be an optimal answer for you. It will make it difficult for you to efficiently attain the proper trim/attitude in the water column. And I own the DUI W&T system, and it adds more clustery around you than a weightbelt does - it is basically incompatible with a DIR rig. One more thing to change!

Best of luck.

 

[Derek S]

I'm watching and studying your comments. I'm thinking that both the BC and the Diver need to be as close to neutral as possible. Of course allowing for the changes due to compression and air consumption. But if you know and understand these dynamic changes that occur during diving you should be able to balance everything. My problem lies in the difficulty to keep the darn belt on when I'm wearing my 7mm farmer john and feeling like the pilsbury dough boy.

Just making sure I understand - do you mean the weight belt gives you issues because of the compression factor on the 7mm suit? Or the fact of having so much weight on the weight belt itself that it's pulling itself down on you?

If you have a drysuit, dive it. Don't mess around with a wetsuit anymore unless you're doing tropical dives (and even then I can still see why a drysuit would work just as well).

*Edit - I R good at English.

 

[Adam_sc]

Jerry,

There are a number of fundamental differences between recreational and technical diving. One of them, among many, is that there are very few situations in an overhead environment (excluding some extreme caving involving pushing a single bottle ahead of you, etc...) where you want to remove your equipment. The last thing you want to do, generally speaking, at 250' is take off your rig.

Removable or ditchable weight is not an issue in overhead environments. IMHO, its over-rated in recreational diving as well. As Gary noted, most divers in the gravest extreme don't ditch weights anyway, because they panic, and if they do, they cannot control their ascent rate because now they are ridiculously bouyant. The only place to ditch weights in recreational diving is when the diver is already on the surface, after some unintended adventure. (Even "bringing an unconscious diver to the surface" in the textbooks suggests to drop the divers weight AT the surface, not at depth.)

If you need a weightbelt to properly trim yourself out, fine...wear one. But don't get carried away trying to ensure you have ditchable weight for your fundies course - you won't be removing and replacing your rig (I promise).

As the other guys have already said, if you need 26 lbs a much better option would be to go with a heavy plate (FredT makes them in 6, 9, 12, and 15 lbs) and either a V-weight (which fits between the two tanks in a set of doubles) or a P-weight (also called a channel weight because it fits into the channel of the plate). Then you supplement as needed with a much lighter and more managable weightbelt.

FredT also supplies trim weights for plates that you get from him. For example, I own a 12 lb 1/4" SS plate from Fred with a 7# P-weight that Fred poured to fit my plate. If you went with something similar this would put 19 lbs flat against your back, where it belongs. Tobin (DSS), also on this board, also offers heavy plates with removable panels. Halcyon offers V-weights in 8 and 11 lbs.

You'll also find that the type of undergarment you use impacts on your bouyancy, and you'll learn to love diving your drysuit real tight...

A 26# weightbelt is not likely to be an optimal answer for you. It will make it difficult for you to efficiently attain the proper trim/attitude in the water column. And I own the DUI W&T system, and it adds more clustery around you than a weightbelt does - it is basically incompatible with a DIR rig. One more thing to change!

Best of luck.

This may be somewhat off-topic but certainly in line with the current discussion. Given what you have just said and the fact that one can achieve a balanced rig with non-ditchable weight and a combination of ditchable and fixed weights what would be a better approach? Does it make sense to factor in a situation (even if rare and unlikely) when you might need to ditch weight or one should strive to be able to overcome the buoyancy problem by other means.

 

[captndale]

I'm not a big proponent of ditchable weight. I personally believe that the current structure of OW teaching is geared towards a "dump and go" mentality. Am I saying that instructors are telling people to just drop weight at the first sign of trouble? No, but it plants the seed in people's head.

IMO, if a diver can't swim up a rig from depth, then how is having the ability to dump ballast going to fix this? If one has a competent buddy/teammate and a a minimal amount of physical prowess, they should be able to get out of the situation. If not, maybe they should consider another sport.

In all the time I have been diving I have never seen a diver voluntarily dump his own balast, but I see weights accidentally dropped all the time, sometimes with exceedingly negative results. IMHO, the problem with most weight systems is that they are too easily dumped.

In our neck of the woods, the popular activity is wreck diving. I would not recommend the DUI weight and trim system for diving in and around wrecks. The release loops stick out and can easily be snagged on pieces of wreckage. Once released, even if the diver is able to retrieve them, the weights would be almost impossible to reattach under water.

 

[Derek S]

In all the time I have been diving I have never seen a diver voluntarily dump his own balast, but I see weights accidentally dropped all the time, sometimes with exceedingly negative results. IMHO, the problem with most weight systems is that they are too easily dumped.

In our neck of the woods, the popular activity is wreck diving. I would not recommend the DUI weight and trim system for diving in and around wrecks. The release loops stick out and can easily be snagged on pieces of wreckage. Once released, even if the diver is able to retrieve them, the weights would be almost impossible to reattach under water.

Ouch, that'd be a real kick in the pants (sorry "pants!") to be moving along and have your weight dumped because you caught your rig on something. :11:

Even when I do wear a weightbelt I wear it under my rig so that if for some reason it does come un-done, my crotch strap will catch it. It should be a moot point now though that I finall got off my duff and bought a weighted STA.

 

[BigJetDriver]

In all the time I have been diving I have never seen a diver voluntarily dump his own balast, but I see weights accidentally dropped all the time, sometimes with exceedingly negative results. IMHO, the problem with most weight systems is that they are too easily dumped.

In our neck of the woods, the popular activity is wreck diving. I would not recommend the DUI weight and trim system for diving in and around wrecks. The release loops stick out and can easily be snagged on pieces of wreckage. Once released, even if the diver is able to retrieve them, the weights would be almost impossible to reattach under water.

Shouldn't that be: "positive results"?

The unit we are talking about is not too easily dumped, since it takes a positive forward motion to do so. It is also easy enough to tuck the handles close to the body so they will not catch on things.

I use the unit for PSD work, and have not had any problems with the handles catching.

You just think that wreck diving has entanglements. You should see some of the mess we crawl around in!! :11:

 

[BigJetDriver]

Of course you always want the right tool for the job. I just don't see how having ditchable weight at 100ffw/fsw solves a fundamental flaw in basic buddy skills, ect.

I apologize if I sounded condescending, as it wasn't my direct intention so much as I wanted to point out that ditching ballast in the throes of a panic attack (real or perceived) can be worse or create more problems than having non-ditchable weight.

Derek,

As they say, ya got a point there, Judge! Nothing, except good training and practice, can solve fundamental flaws in basic buddy skills, and so on.

Also true that ditching ballast in the throes of panic, or doing just about anything in panic mode, is a bad idea!

Both good points!

BJD (a.k.a. Rob)

P.S.---The avatar is a B-777. It is 200 by 200 by 64 ft, so I guess you could call it big! :11:

 

[Derek S]

Derek,

As they say, ya got a point there, Judge! Nothing, except good training and practice, can solve fundamental flaws in basic buddy skills, and so on.

Also true that ditching ballast in the throes of panic, or doing just about anything in panic mode, is a bad idea!

Both good points!

BJD (a.k.a. Rob)

P.S.---The avatar is a B-777. It is 200 by 200 by 64 ft, so I guess you could call it big! :11:

Rob,

Thank you for your service.

<--- dad is a 23+yr veteran of the Onadoga County (Syracuse, NY area) Sheriff's Department.

 

[BigJetDriver]

Derek,

I appreciate the pat on the back. Your father certainly deserves it as well.

I have enjoyed my time serving with the good folks in blue and brown. They are a crazy bunch. After all, what can you say about folks who run TOWARD trouble, instead of away!! But they are good people, and true!

Rob