DSS wing - not a donut - discuss

[cool_hardware52]

They have not posed any restraints for Halcyon, OMS, OxyCheq (me), Deep OutDoors and others.

A constraint does not imply that such a design is impossible. I well know that you, and others make donut wings.

As I'm sure you know donuts are typically made either using a single welded layer, for example yours and the Halcyon Pioneer. This a valid way to make wings, but I prefer not to make single layer wings.

To make a double bladder donut, one must have 360 degree access to install the bladder. This typically either means a 360 degree zipper, or in the case of our "Torus" a velcroed access panel. For low frequency closures velcro is sufficently long wearing. Maybe not for closures cycled every dive, but wings are opened only occassionally.

360 degree zippers do impose constraints, they require a straight sided section, usually along side the cyclinder to install the zipper. While this can be done it limits the shapes that can be achieved. Long zippers can also be more difficult to install correctly on a consistent basis, and this as you note can add cost.

There is no technical impediment to DSS producing donut wings for single tanks, but I know that our narrow profile horseshoe wings perform well, and do not require a 360 degree zipper. I'd need a better reason than fashion.

If anything, they are a little more difficult to manufacture and assemble.

Difficulty in manufacture and assembly can be considered constraints.

BTW, Nice to see you around Pat, the members here can only benefit from a free exchange of ideas.


Tobin

 

[veggiedog]

Veggiedog,

Lets see, now I'm "reluctant" and "evasive" how nice.

The facts:

1. I have never stated that donut wings are a poor design, or that they don't work. My consistent position has been that the manner in which donut wings function is not primarily due to the donut shape, but due to the narrow profile.

Can you show me where I have ever said anything to the contrary?

2. Donut wings impose design constraints, if I can acheive the same performance without these contraints why do it?

3. Arguing the validity of any feature based on no more than that feature might be present on some other product is simply flawed logic. It is not my desire or intention to denigrate other gear, but to stand on "well other people do it so it must be necessary" is completely intellectually vacant.

If you are happy diving your donut, great! If you need me to validate your purchase, you are in for a long wait.


Tobin

1) I believe the statement above is more reasonable than the additional constraints you placed on the scenarios in which you claimed donut benefits are realized. For instance,
Tobin> "Can a case be made that a donut is a better solution for a wetsuit diver, who never goes even slightly heads up, and is always either heads down or dead level? Well maybe, but IMO, that's a small minority."

2) Because customers might want it. If it is just a design constraint, and it provides different behaviors that customers want, why not work within those constraints? Do wings really give exactly the same performance as donuts? Even you admit they don't (as you always have), you just downplay the relevance.

3) I agree, that was not my intent. I was trying to demonstrate that other, potentially knowledgeable, people seemed to recognize this feature in an effort to get you to acknowledge a truth I was suspecting you already knew, that there are benefits, for instance, to having multiple bottom dumps on a wing. Not that there aren't also detriments. I was not using that as irrefutable proof, nor do I subscribe to that belief.

I don't need validation, and I truly am thankful for your contribution and patience.

 

[Patrick]

Tobin,

Both Halcyon and OxyCheq have single bladder (or as I call, bladderless) and double bladder (as I call bladder) wings. The Razor series is bladderless and the Signature Series has a bladder, a very thick bladder.

I have not looked closely at the Halcyon wing, but I am sure we have come up with similar zipper installations and they are on curves. We both have access to the bladder on by means of the zipper on the inside of the loop and they are on curves.

The zipper had no impact on my designs. First I came up with the shape I wanted and then we figured out how to install the zipper. It really was a non issue.

The new doubles wings will use the same zipper construction.

At some point we can discuss the differences in performance between bladderless vs bladder. I have both and there are differences. In fact, by January OxyCheq should have 16 different wings to choose from. Six of those are just for doubles.

Safe diving,

Patrick Duffy
OxyCheq
3812 Crossroads Parkway
Fort Pierce FL 34945
http://oxycheq.com
ph: 772.466.4612

 

[Patrick]

Ooops!

Make that ... six of the sixteen wings are just for single cylnders.

Almost 1pm and getting tired.

Safe diving,

Patrick Duffy
OxyCheq
3812 Crossroads Parkway
Fort Pierce FL 34945
http://oxycheq.com
ph: 772.466.4612

 

[cool_hardware52]

2) Because customers might want it.

I need more than that. If I'm going to design a product it must: be a challange, be unique, and be useful. Usefullness, is of course, a judgement only the end user can make.

If customers really want a donut, there are fine examples readily available right now. I'd have no reservations about diving an Oxy, or Halcyon etc. and in fact have done just that. I'm always eagar to try other gear.

2)If it is just a design constraint, and it provides different behaviors that customers want, why not work within those constraints? Do wings really give exactly the same performance as donuts?

Every design choice is a matter of compromises, that's just a fact. Everyone has a cost vs benefit. In my analysis, the "benefits" of a donut for singles are not outweighed by the "costs" Is the ability to vent all your gas when head down worth a 360 zipper and the associated constraints imposed? Not in my opinion. Yours may differ.


Tobin

 

[cool_hardware52]

I have not looked closely at the Halcyon wing, but I am sure we have come up with similar zipper installations and they are on curves. We both have access to the bladder on by means of the zipper on the inside of the loop and they are on curves.

The zipper had no impact on my designs. First I came up with the shape I wanted and then we figured out how to install the zipper. It really was a non issue.

In my experience, it is very difficult, bordering on impossible, to have a zipper where the two sides are different lenghts. In every 360 zipper wing I've ever seen, the zipper is installed in straight sided, vertical section. For point of reference I refer to a wing laying flat on a table, the zipper panel is then a vertical tube. This tube maybe oval in plan view, but the walls where the zipper is placed has always been vertical.

Imagine trying to install (or use for that matter) a zipper installed in a surface like a banked race track. The "inside" of the zipper would be shorter than the "outside"

Zippers are commonly used on simple curves, not on compound curves. Look at Drysuits, luggage, clothes for that matter. If you've found a way to install zippers on compound curves I'll be impressed.


Tobin

 

[fishb0y]

I was actually trying to contradict the larger insult of Tobin attributed to me by fishb0y (IIRC): that I believed Tobin's experience was in question. Furthermore, my manners should make it easier to side with Tobin.

It's kinda funny how your abrazive style also changes what people say, which you have a tendency to do in your threads. I guess I should have corrected you earlier, but I have re-read my post 34, and I don't once see how I said you were discounting Tobin's experience. Let me know when you start designing dive gear, I would love to test dive it.

 

[Patrick]

Tobin,

Knowing the amount of wings I have sold and having a rough idea on the amount of wings others have sold that utilize zippers, I don't think I am the only company that has been able to figure out how to install a zipper on curves.

That technique is not new to diving. I remember seeing a similar technique being used on float/tube covers in the past. The technique is not new and that is why I did not consider it an issue when I designed the wings.

Don't you have a zipper on the top of your single wings? Is that on any curve or did you place it on the side of the wing where it is straight?

Not quite sure why you have difficulty with it. You are talking theory and I am talking reality. It has been done and was done long before me.

If you were correct about the race track theory then I guess someone ought to tell all the luggage manufacturers out there that their zippers do not work. In the luggage zipper, it really makes some radical right angle turns.

Safe diving,

Patrick Duffy
OxyCheq
3812 Crossroads Parkway
Fort Pierce FL 34945
http://oxycheq.com
ph: 772.466.4612

 

[veggiedog]

It's kinda funny how your abrazive style also changes what people say, which you have a tendency to do in your threads. I guess I should have corrected you earlier, but I have re-read my post 34, and I don't once see how I said you were discounting Tobin's experience. Let me know when you start designing dive gear, I would love to test dive it.

Sorry, you are correct, you did not say that I was discounting Tobin's experience. I did claim IIRC (if I remember correctly): I should have reread to make sure what you said (I was being lazy). My claim about avoiding the larger insult was relative to my perception that you thought I was challenging Tobin's experience with my feeble experience. I wanted to make sure that no one thought I was pitting my experience against Tobin's as I conceed Tobin is far more experienced than I. I was more interested in lessening the importance of experience, and to be honest about my position, and I didn't realize sharing my cynical position (don't trust anyone) would be construed as an attack on Tobin's honor.

I apologize for not being more careful attributing claims to your post, and for not more carefully considering your original post when I originally responded.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Tobin,

Knowing the amount of wings I have sold and having a rough idea on the amount of wings others have sold that utilize zippers, I don't think I am the only company that has been able to figure out how to install a zipper on curves.

Pat you have sold many more wings than I have, congradulations. Of your 16 wings for how many did you personally develop the actual production pattern, and how many were developed by your fabricator / contractor?

Our goods are both developed and manufacturered in house. The pattern development, sewing, welding, and assembly all take place here in Pasadena California. We don't send anything "offshore", or "south of the border" My pattern maker is on staff, and we work closely together. It's been an education for me. My responsibilities are primarily for the welding dies, but the shape of the shell, and the shape of the bladder need to be coordinated. This not necessarily the lowest cost means of production, but if offers a degree of control that's hard to beat. I also enjoy having my hands in all phases of the product.

That technique is not new to diving. I remember seeing a similar technique being used on float/tube covers in the past.

Quite right, on float covers for inner tubes the zipper is either around the outside, or around the inside, that is exactly where the two sides of the zipper will be the same lenght.

Don't you have a zipper on the top of your single wings? Is that on any curve or did you place it on the side of the wing where it is straight?

Yes of course when I do use a zipper it's in the top arc of the wing. That's precisely because that portion of the wing is a simple curve, i.e. the "plane" of the zipper is curved in one direction only. If you lay the pattern flat on a table the zipper will be a straight line. I realize this is not any easy subject to convey using only text, but take a look at definitions for "simple curve" and "compound curve"

Zippers don't work well when one side is compressed and the other is stretched. Take any jacket, front zip. Why do people hold down the bottom front of the zipper when closing? To force both halves to be the same lenght. Try zipping your jacket closed while pulling on one side while bunching up the other, jam city.

Not quite sure why you have difficulty with it. You are talking theory and I am talking reality.

Are you sure Pat? I know for a fact that your double bladder donut for singles has the zipper installed exactly as I state, i.e. in a vertical section along side the cyclinder, curved in plane view, but very definitely a straight walled vertical cyclinder. You might want to check with your pattern maker.

If you were correct about the race track theory then I guess someone ought to tell all the luggage manufacturers out there that their zippers do not work. In the luggage zipper, it really makes some radical right angle turns.

You've missed my point completely Pat.


Tobin