Drysuit trouble...

[PinkPADIgal]

It is interesting to read how there only one way to dive a drysuit properly. That is not true.

If you are properly weighted, in a drysuit that fits perfectly, you should only have to use your drysuit for buoyancy, because that is how they are designed to work. However, that doesn't work for everyone or every situation.

If you are diving with a Wheezle undergarment, for example, the manufacturer recommends that you use your suit to take off squeeze, and BC for buoyancy. Many tech divers, also use their BCD because of added weight. Many divers find it just easier to dive with both BCD/DS. There is nothing wrong with that.

Drysuit manufactures and certification agencies recommend you use your DS for bouyancy. It can be done, and it is very easy to do, as long as you are weighted properly and you can comfortably control the air bubble in the suit. If you cannot do this, then use your BCD/DS combo. If that works better, go for it. As long as you are safe and comfortable, it doesn't matter how you dive. I have dove both ways and depending on the situation, I will use my BC if necessary. However, I normally dive using my DS for buoyancy.

The drysuit itself is only one piece of diving dry. Having a properly fitting undergarment is the key to staying warm. You may find the dry suit will fit better, you will stay warmer and controlling the bubble is easier when the undergarment is designed to work with the suit, and it fits properly. If the undergarment is too big, air can get trapped and it becomes harder to vent from the suit.

Learning to dive with a drysuit perfectly doesn't come after taking a specialty. It comes from practice. Until you are confident in your skills, I would never dive a drysuit deeper than you can handle. I would suggest a few dives in the 20-30 ft range and then move deeper as your skills get better.

 

[TSandM]

The basic principles is that, the bigger the bubble in the dry suit, the more unstable it is, and the more actively you have to anticipate buoyancy changes to vent adequately. HERE is a good article talking about this.

When you dive fairly small tanks, and only start the dive a few pounds negative, using the dry suit for buoyancy works pretty well, because the amount of gas you need to offset squeeze and neutralize the weight of the air in your tanks is fairly small. When you dive big tanks like 130's, or dive doubles, you are talking about a great deal more air, and at that point, you're far better off just relieving squeeze and using the BC for buoyancy, or, as you become more facile with controlling the two spaces, splitting the air between the two.

Somebody made the point above that you have to learn the best body position to dump your drysuit. This can be a real problem, if the dump valve is placed improperly. I had a drysuit which had the dump valve on the FRONT of my chest -- the only way to dump was to go vertical and lean backwards, or roll over almost onto my back. Not very useful at all. But even valves placed within reasonable limits will take a little different positioning to dump. In my Mobby's suit, I barely have to extend my shoulder at all; sometimes, I can actually do the whole ascent without changing anything, and the suit just burps itself. In my Fusion, I do have to raise the arm a little bit, which is also fine. These things come with practice, as does picking up the kinesthetic cues that tell you the suit is getting a little bit loose and it would be a good idea to vent it -- Of course, that requires that you have learned how the suit SHOULD feel, and that takes dives.

 

[Underwater Ogre]

I havent read all the posts in this thread... so excuse me if am being redundant.
I agree with experience being the key to good buoyancy in a drysuit.
But I do see that valve placement seems to be a common issue. I installed my valve on my right forearm after having suits with valves on the upper arm and shoulder. The comments I get when diving with people are funny. From "thats not right" to "cool great idea". The biggest advantage I have found, is not having to worry about my shoulder and mobility.

 

[TSandM]

I used a wrist dump for a while . . . The biggest issue was that I had to move my arm quite a bit out of normal position to use it, and on the other hand, if I raised my hand for any reason (eg. to reach valves) it dumped when I didn't want it to. The plus of the shoulder is that, if it's situated properly, it's a very subtle movement to get it to dumping position.

 

[scubapatton]

Sounds like a scary experience on the first dive without the instructor around. Going to 70 feet, although a bit deep for first dive out of class, is not that big a deal.. it can actually be easier to learn from since you have more compression and less "floaty" issues. PADI books do advocate using the DS as the primary source of buoyancy, but I actually teach all three - only DS, only BCD, and a mix. I explain the different rationales and views and encourage people to try all three in the pool and during the dives... I just go negative and hold on to them for a few moments to get them used to different scenarios... I think you should practice the tuck and roll since it sounds like that was either forgotten in the heat of the moment or just not known to begin with.

Someone posted a good point about making sure not to lift your hand too high since the air will just shoot right past the dump valve and go to your wrist. One thing (that helps with the DUI suits anyway) is to bend your arm at the elbow when you arm is at your side, THEN lift the arm. The suit will usually not allow too much air into the wrist area and then "pool" at the valve area... A bit hard to explain but visualize it and I think you will see what I mean.

I would suggest trying to go out a few more times either in low-surf beach entry or off boats to get used to it some more... play with the buoyancy using the BCD for now, do a buoyancy check - you can do it at the beginning if you are using a steel tank (you mentioned a S130). You can also use ankle weights in the beginning of your learning curve... The ankle weights will make your legs a bit heavier and may help prevent going head down as easily - try only a max of 1.5 pounders though since you do not want your legs too heavy.... At 200 pounds, and a S130, you probably could get away with less weight than you noted. Depending on what you use diving wet (and undergarments for diving dry), you should only need to add 4-6 pounds going dry. Seeing as we are both in So Cal, 4-6 pounds should suffice. I dive DUI and use the gray undergarments. If you use the black, they are not as warm and not as thick, so 3-4 extra pounds SHOULD suffice. Again, your body mass and many other variables play into this, but this should help you get dialed in.

Really the key is to practice. Since you already have taken the course, I would suggest going into a pool and playing with it a bit if you can. For those learning from your XP, play around a lot with it in the class (pool and ocean). Really the only true merits to taking the course in my mind is two-fold. 1) Shops should not be renting a drysuit to you if you do not have the DS cert (like getting NitrOX fills without a cert). If you own, this becomes moot - unless you rent on vacations. 2) learn more about maintenance/usage/seal cutting of a DS from someone with (hopefully) more XP. Some people learn by hands on, others like tutelage... To each their own..

Good luck, and I sincerely hope you have not been discouraged from diving Dry.

 

[NJ Wreckster]

Bouyancy should be controlled with the drysuit, not the bcd--end of story.

The only two times I can think of using a BCD for bouyancy compensation when diving dry are:
1: Diving with extra weight to keep one down on the wreck so you can work,
2: Compensating for heavily negative twin steel lp104s (I'm not familiar with 130s) at the beginning of the dive when there is full air in the tanks.

Normally, if you are weighted correctly, keeping just enough air in the drysuit to prevent suit squeeze will maintain proper bouyancy at all depths and keep you toasty warm.

The drysuit course I took was completely worthless but taking it allowed me to practice in the DS pool until I mastered the tuck 'n roll. This one maneuver will save your life if you get inverted. Trust me, I know.

 

[HBDiveGirl]

Bouyancy should be controlled with the drysuit, not the bcd--end of story.

Debatable, as shown in the many thoughtful posts from experienced divers here.

The only two times I can think of using a BCD for bouyancy compensation when diving dry are:
1: Diving with extra weight to keep one down on the wreck so you can work,
2: Compensating for heavily negative twin steel lp104s (I'm not familiar with 130s) at the beginning of the dive when there is full air in the tanks.

I am familiar with hp130s and a drysuit in cold water, and if I used my drysuit for 100% buoyancy control at 130fsw with a full hp130 at the beginning of a dive... I would look like the Michelin man. And my weighting is exactly correct, allowing me to hold a 10fsw stop with only 500psi in my tank at the end of the dive.

What works for me: Add gas into drysuit to keep the squeeze comfortable, and add gas into the wing for any additional buoyancy needed.
As I ascend, I vent the drysuit first to keep it fitting snug and well.. this avoids excessive gas in the suit.
Once the squeeze is right in the suit, I vent the wing if needed to remain neutral.

I do hundreds of multi-level dives a year, in 48F to 70F water, and this works.

~~~~
Claudette

 

[NJ Wreckster]

I don't think we are disagreeing here. What you said appears to be another way of saying what I said in #2, which agrees with using the wings for additional bouyancy with full heavy steel tanks.

I often overfill my LP104s so that one can presume they have similar bouyancy characteristics to your HP130s.

I used to dive doubles and didn't really need extra air in the BCD because I needed a little negative bouyancy to hold me down on a wreck. Also, it is possible that my drysuit used considerably more air than yours since I'm a guy and that may have made two steel tanks for me the equivalent of one steel tank for you.

Most of the time, people are using single aluminum 80s anyway and would be overtaxed by trying to use both the bcd and drysuit for bouyancy control.

These days, diving with just one steel LP104 overfilled, I don't use my wings for bouyancy and am just fine.

I'm willing to bet you have too much weight (on your weight belt, that is).

 

[Luis H]

One more situation where you have to use a BC for buoyancy is if you are using a full thickness 7mm dry suit. The buoyancy change of the 7mm neoprene material is too large to just compensate by just putting air in the suit.

I realize that most people in this thread are talking about laminate suit, but some of the statements are expressed as if they apply universally and they don’t.

 

[beachdude]

Practice, practice, practice.

Beachdude, you are asking all the right questions and you WILL get this stuff sorted out.

Topaz Jetty and Redondo Canyon are the most challenging sites for dry suit diving in the entire L.A. area. It's a very shallow slope as you ascend, and most new drysuit divers "get behind" on venting their suits as you get few visual cues that you are ascending. This makes it a GREAT place to learn, and also a frustating experience when you are new. Been there.

When I learned, I blamed it on my undergarments, my valve, the fit of my suit... everything I could.


Then I learned that it was a skill issue with several parts:

• Learn to feel the feedback of your suit. It tells you when you need to vent, but it's subtle. You'll learn. You'll recognize signals from your feet, legs, back... it's amazing!
• Plan ahead. Vent your suit dramatically before beginning your ascent.
• Stop immediately if you become positive. Fix the problem.
• Ask a skilled drysuit diver-buddy to watch you vent your suit underwater. It's likely that your body position is preventing air from moving to the dump valve.
• It takes longer to vent a drysuit than it does to vent your BC or wing. Contrary to an extreme view point offered earlier, it's OK to use both your wing/BC and your drysuit for buoyancy. You'll learn what works for you. There is no one right answer for all divers in all situations.
• Keep trying, and be safe by NOT approaching your NDL limits on these early dives. This lowers the risk in case you ascend more rapidly than you intend.
• Vent "early and often" as you ascend.

There are many experienced drysuit divers in the Redondo/SoBay area.

Shoot out a call and many of us would be happy to mentor and answer questions.

Welcome to the warm side. You are going to LOVE it!!!

~~~~~
Claudette

Claudette (HBDiveGirl)

Thank you so much for taking your time to help me learn my dry suit. You are so right Vets Park is a challenge! You are a really great diver and friend to all in need! The dive community is a fantastic group and you like so many really care. Again, I really appreciate your coaching me on dry suit usage in the water. Now I know it is not the dry suit but the diver, venting often and learning to breath properly is essential to proper buoyancy control.

Like you all say, "practice, practice, practice"....