Dry suits for all occasions

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makes it impossible to dive most doubles with any Nitrox mix.

A balanced rig means that with empty tanks you can still hold a stop at 10 ft. It also means that with full tanks and no buoyancy from your suit or your wing you can swim up your rig from any depth.

Simply unrealistic, if you do not permit the ditching of some of the gas.

As I pointed out to you, a pair of 120 cube tanks (LP104s overpumped, or HP120s at rated pressure) will have 18lbs of gas in them when full.

Most people cannot swim up 18lbs of negative buoyancy, yet this is the absolute minimum you will be negative, even if there is zero exposure suit compression, at the beginning of the dive.

It is precisely this kind of stupidity in the GUE/DIR mantra that gets people in trouble and leads to even MORE insanity in attempting to justify the original idiocy.
 
Interesting... now, if I happen to be diving full steel doubles without a drysuit and am therefore somwhere about 25 pounds negative on the bottom when my wing has a catastrophic failure...
I'll still ride effortlessly back up to the surface, without having to swim a lick.
Reckon how I do that?
E. itajara
 
You guys aren't reading what I wrote. If you carry that much gas, you need a small amount of ditchable weight. If you think that it is better to dump some gas, fine, dump some gas. However, there are situations where you are better off ditching the weight, therefore you need it. For example, when diving in cold water where the reg could freeze up, in situations where you might need the gas, and in situations where you want to get off the bottom before you start building up a serious deco obligation.


I ask again that we keep it civil, and don't start with "this is idiotic, etc. etc.". Let's just have a nice discussion like civil human beings, and debate on the merits of the sytem and logical argument. Otherwise, we might as well go hang out on techdiver.
 
Think it through Braun.

If you ditch ANY weight, you now have imposed an artificial GAS FLOOR on your dive.

Use more than that much gas, and you now have an uncontrollable ascent as you come up. Exactly where it is you cannot compute, but that it will happen is a certainty.

An uncontrollable ascent is one of the most dangerous things you can experience as a diver. It can and will either bend or embolize you, and while a bends hit is "fixable", an AGE hit might not be.

Undertaking an act that will cause such an imbalance in your kit is, IMHO, unwise in virtually all circumstances. I agree that if the alternative is CERTAIN DEATH, you might choose this (e.g. you're in a "no floor" environment, sinking fast, and MUST ditch mass RIGHT NOW to avoid going to the bottom of a 2500 foot trench!)

I would, however, also argue that if you find yourself in that situation you have not correctly planned your dive. In such a dive situation you need redundant buoyancy of SOME kind - whether that "some kind" is a redundant BC, a SMB, a drysuit, or something - you simply must have SOME kind of redundant buoyancy if you are diving a "bottomless pit."

Let's take the more common scenario.

You are diving Nitrox to 100-110', with doubles as this is a planned deco dive, with a cylinder of either 50/50 for deco or perhaps a cylinder of 100% O2 for the final deco at 20', planning to use backgas for your deeper stops. The dive is a wreck, and you plan some penetration. You are in a relatively thin (3 mil) wetsuit and weighted for neutral with empty tanks at the surface, as you should be. The water temp at the bottom is 75F, which is fine, and 80ish above 40' - normal for this part of the country.

With the tanks full, at the surface, you are -18. Why? That's how much the gas weighs. Cool.

(Note that with trimix you shouldn't HAVE a mass-of-gas issue, so this situation should ONLY arise with Nitrox - thus, the depth range I'm referring to here. With 30/30 Trimix on this dive you'd only be -7 or -8 - not a problem.)

Ok.

You get down there to the planned depth, within your MOD, and your wing comes apart. You now have no buoyancy, your gas, nearly all of which is in the tanks still makes you -18, and worse, your suit, which is usually +10, is now +3. Your total negative buoyancy is -25.

You can swim up (which you know, because you've done it to test) a kit of -15, at least for a short distance. You need to ditch 10lbs to be able to get out of this pickle, or have a redundant source of 10lbs of buoyancy.

You have the following options:

Your buddy should have a working BC. If you "link up", you can both use HIS BC to rise from the bottom. This is not a zero-risk game, however, as he is now effectively using his BC as a lift bag - to lift YOU! That's dangerous for him if somehow you become "detached", as HE will rocket to the surface, and YOU will sink like a stone. This option sucks, although its a useful "last ditch" option.

If you have a 50lb bag, you can hook it under your left (useless, remember, as your inflator doesn't do you any good) arm, put in some gas, get back the 10lbs you need, and start to swim up. You do not attempt to use the bag as a BC replacement, because you don't have that fine of control over it! Rather, you use it ONLY to offset enough negative buoyancy to be able to SWIM up, and dump it early and often. When you perceive that you're a few lbs negative (instead of -15!) you dump some of the bag's gas, to avoid IT running away on you. That's option #2.

You probably do not HAVE 10lbs of ditchable weight. That one's out the window.

Your other option, and the one that makes plenty of sense, is to dump 10lbs of GAS. You will still have 8lbs of GAS, which is more than 1/3rd of what you started with - remember, you planned with a "rule of thirds", and you're well within that. You have no deco obligation (remember, this problem only "bites" you if it happens at the start of the dive - when the tanks are full!), and thus, having dumped the gas you have more than enough for a safe, controlled swim-up ascent, a safety stop, and, lo and behold, when you get back to the surface your kit is only -3 or so - easily finned to stay on the surface. If you have a few lbs of lead on your belt you can ditch THAT at the surface to insure you don't sink, and all is well.

Now let's say you were diving a really thick wetsuit and you had enough lead to ditch that instead.

Ok, you ditch the 10lbs of lead. Now you start to kick up. As you do, your suit uncompresses. Also, you now are consuming gas. You MAY find yourself above the "critical depth" - a depth you cannot possibly calculcate accurately "on the fly" - and if you do, you had better have something to hang on to (like an anchor line) or you are going to the surface RIGHT NOW.

That's the risk of this approach, and why I'd only use it as a last, final resort.
 
You have a good point about the artificial gas floor. I hadn't thought about that.

I agree that in some cases dumping gas may be the better option. However, the way I look at it, 90% of the time this is going to happen right at the start of the dive. At this point, dumping the weight will get you out before you have any deco obligation, and you'll have enough gas weight to do a slow ascent.

Dumping the gas takes a long time, and could cause the reg to freeze up.

I think that before dumping any gas I'd use my small surface marker as lift. It's only 6 pounds, and would be easy to manage.

The first line of defense though, is diving a balanced rig and having a small amount of ditchable weight. It's simple, and easy, and doesn't require a lot of futzing around.

Linking up with the buddy, is IMO the worst solution and not your call, but your buddies. In that scenario I would link to the diver using double enders, but like I said there is no reason it should ever get to that point.

Just my .02
 
Stephen Ash once bubbled...



That's the wierdest advice that I've seen in awhile. hmm...I guess you can dive in your underwear while you're saving up for that drysuit.


I think the implication was that it appeared that he was renting gear already, hence the 40+ dives logged, and was asking about the order of gear purchasing one would recommend.
I would add to Paul's comments that it's difficult to establish proper weighting and therefore buoyancy without your own suit, it holds true for the BC as well for a relatively new diver. Consistency helps. I would get a BC or suit before regs, if my budget dictated, for that reason
 
Braunbehrens once bubbled...
It's unfortunate, because he is right in what he says.

For recreational diving a wetsuit will do, but for anything technical a drysuit is pretty much necessary.

I'd be happy to discuss the pros and cons of wet vs. dry diving for TEK diving only.

However, I think we need a new thread if we're going to do this.


Paul,

The guys at AUE in Fla do it almost every day.
 
Unfortunately the fact that a lot of people do something does not make it the best way. Otherwise we cold do away with the discussions, have some polls...and they'd probably be in Chinese.

I think most of the arguments have been covered, anyone interested in the subject can make up their mind. I'm happy to discuss it further if anyone feels the need, but PLEASE start a new thread. This has nothing to do with computers.

Thanks.
 
Braunbehrens once bubbled...
You guys aren't reading what I wrote.
Sure we are. You don't want to be confused by all the folks who don't do it "Right" (your way) - even the folks at GUE - or don't agree with you that the dry suit is the only best way to dive in any and all circumstances. You don't want to see pictures, or anecdotal evidence, or testimony from those of us who've been diving both wet and dry in all sorts of conditions and on all sorts of dives for decades... no, you've made up your mind and you're not interested in the facts as seen by the rest of us... and that's fine, because one of the nicest things about diving is that it is, in the end, pretty much an individual sport.
And I agree - you and DIR Tec Diver should wear your dry suits whenever and wherever you dive, because it's the best way to dive... for you two. Wear 'em in 40C water; wear 'em in the car on the way to the dive site if you want.
Wearing a dry suit does not happen to be the best, easiest, or safest way for many of my dives, and I will thank you kindly to graciously accept that and leave me to my folly.
Rick
 
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