Dry suit - if money was no object!

[Bruce Justinen]

I read the review on scuba diving magazine and this made me check out one of your suits at the LDS in Virginia. It was a brilliant suit except for one thing that I did not like. Vent valve was on the wrist instead of shoulder. For most people this may be an advantage of some kind but I dive with a a very heavy DSLR and in order to vent I would have to lift my left arm up. Since this would be the same arm holding a DSLR housing, I figured venting with this for me personally would be a major PIA. With a shoulder mounted valve I can just pop an elbow up and vent while still holding the camera in exactly the same spot. Had it not been for this, I would go out and buy one right now.

One more question: Is the neoprene crushed / compressed neoprene of regular? I wonder how much more weight it would need to sink in comparison with my bi lam.

Let me answer first of all with a long answer and then get to the short one. We put the exhaust valve on the forearm because this is the naturally correct place to put it. For the majority of divers, this is where it should be. Air will exhaust here approximately 5 Xs faster than a shoulder dump. Hold your shoulder up in the position where you normally would to dump air and you will find that it drives the exhaust valve into your undergarment or your bicep.

In a forearm mounted dump valve the air will rise to the end of the arm causing the valve to naturally lift away from your arm and release air. Since it releases so much quicker, a quick lifting of the arm from the elbow for a half second or so releases enough air where it might take 2 -5 seconds for someone else's shoulder dump.

Since it releases air so quickly, there is rarely if ever a situation where you accidentally rise to the surface accidentally since you can dump all of your air so quickly even if you find yourself rising rapidly toward the surface with the air expanding inside the suit.

Short answer - if you want the exhaust valve on the shoulder we will put it there for you.

You mention crushed/compressed. Most people do not know the difference, you should come to one of my seminars sometime. Here is the simple answer.

Crushed is done physically, the air cell is fractured, the air escapes, very little insulation is left, very little stretch, but very tough (basically a really expensive bi or tri-lam).

Compressed is done chemically, the air cell basically shrinks as it cools when it is manufactured. This creates a thicker membrane wall around the air cell which makes it more resistant to compression. Of course there are many, many different formulas used to make this type of neoprene.

How much does it compress during the cooling cycle? Each batch of the same formula can even vary slightly. But one thing is true, this neoprene is resistant to compression, it still has insulating qualities and it still stretches so it is highly desirable as a drysuit material but there is new research showing that as far as insulation goes, this is important but not as important as we once thought.

This brings us to the subject of weights. Here is where people get hung up, especially if they have been diving a shell suit. Most divers (notice I said "most" please) diving a shell suit are diving with a squeeze which means they are accustomed to using very little weight. In a neoprene drysuit, you do not dive with a squeeze because you are automatically diving with a layer of air all around you, it is in the neoprene itself.

Those diving a squeeze in a shell suit become accustomed to the discomfort because they have a thick undergarment that insulates them from the forces of the squeeze. In a neoprene drysuit with its thinner undergarment you would notice the force of a squeeze at once so normally more weight is required.

I am often asked, why do you need more weight in a neoprene suit? I often reply "think about this, the air is actually only insulation, that is all it is. If you need more weight, it is because the neoprene is delivering more insulation. More insulation for most divers is spelled C-O-M-F-O-R-T. Though you might need more weight, you will find you are warmer, more comfortable, and certainly have far less hydrodrag than you did in a shell suit. With less drag and being warmer, your bottom time will increase. For most divers, that is certainly worth diving with a little bit more weight."

One last thing. In a neoprene drysuit, weight equals warmth, the more weight you dive with - the more air you put in your suit. The more air in your suit, (within reason) the warmer you are. There is more information on our website Home page Thank you for the opportunity to share some of my thoughts. Bruce

 

[mdb]

Bruce: Good informed reply, as usual.

 

[ajtoady]

I personally dive a Seasoft TX3 and in all honesty it is very comfortable, flexible, and warm. I wear polar fleece jogging clothes instead of the usual quilted under garments and will do two 40-50 minute dives in the 33* F St.Lawrence River without issue or any discomfort. The weighting, I feel is within the normal realm of drysuit weight, about 22 lbs. Is it the best drysuit? Everyone has their own preferences. Me, when I wear this one out I'll buy another Seasoft more than likely.

 

[TSandM]

I'm sure that neoprene dry suits have some nice features -- in particular, the streamlining that comes with a smooth exterior, and the ability of the material to stretch.

They have some downsides. Like all neoprene, they'll lose insulating capacity at depth. They are heavy, and they dry much more slowly than a laminate suit. They are also intrinsically warm, which is nice if all your diving in your dry suit is going to be in very cold water, but makes the suit less versatile for travel. In addition, fit is more important than it is with something like the Whites Fusion, which is forgiving of legs or arms that are a bit too long, or a torso that's a bit too generous.

It has previously been my take that neoprene dry suits had another thing going for them, which was price point, but the higher end SeaSoft suit has a price that puts it in the same category as DUI.

There simply is no perfect suit. You have to look at a whole range of factors, some of which are considered in the testing, and some of which are not. You have to decide what's important to YOU, and what is optional, and what doesn't matter at all, and then make a suit choice on that basis. For me, not having to go custom for fit for a very small woman was critical (my one experience with custom suit was too painful to risk repeating). A light suit that dried quickly was important, because I travel. A suit that tolerated a great deal of punishment was important, because I cave dive, and getting in and out of sites often involves some bouldering and even crawling on limestone. The suit also had to accomodate a very wide range of undergarments, because it gets used in very cold water and in the tropics. Field-replaceable seals were highly desirable, again because I travel, and to places where they have never sold or fixed a dry suit. A reasonable price point was highly desirable, as was easy field repair. I was willing to live with a bit more effort to get in and out of the suit. I wanted self-donning, which my suit is as close to as any suit I've seen. Air-shifting, as described in the article, is, in my opinion, virtually entirely a technique issue, and all dry suits are capable of permitting air-shifting. (Obviously, the less air you have in the suit, the less that's a problem, which might be pertinent with neoprene suits, since you use lighter undergarments that don't require as much air to loft.)

Somebody else might order their priorities differently, perhaps because they only dive at home in cold water, or perhaps because price is more critical, or because they rarely dive very deep, or because they're an easy stock size fit. But we all have to make a list of the things we want and the things we can't live with, and see what suit lines up best for our own needs.

 

[mdb]

A good stock neoprene suit will take on the colder waters as well as warmer tropical environments.

Local diving in Monterrey Bay is now at 57F. In the lower Keys it is about 83F.

I can dive the same suit both Pacific and Atlantic.

Local, just ski underwear, streamlined and comfortable.

Florida Keys, no hood, t-shirt and bathing suit.

Very versatile.

If bags worked fish would look like bags.

Well constructed neoprene suits with proper valves and features can dive any ocean, anytime.

 

[tye1138]

Not to dig up an older thread, but I too will be buying a new dry suit this month and have dove in many drysuits.

- Older whites trilam (forgot the model name)
- Viking Pro 1000
- Atlan 7mm
- Typhoon Trilam (x2)

The 7mm neoprene drysuit was just too bulky, it was ridiculous and you felt it everywhere from donning/doffing and of course underwater. Sure, you could wear a bathing suit and t shirt under it, but what's the point if your sweating bullets on the surface.

Both the trilam's leaked from day one, they were very uncomfortable without wearing serious thermal protection and with the amount of diving I was doing (instructing at the time), the suits literally fell apart in months, not years. I was replacing seals, fixing leaks constantly and never once dove completely dry in either of them. It was like some sick joke, put on a trash bag and it WILL be water tight with all those seams running everywhere. Well, the joke was on me evidently!

The Viking 1000 Pro was a bit on the heavy side for sure, but it fit me like a glove for some reason. I never got the same squeezing harshness which was experienced in the trilam's. When we'd train in the warm water lakes/ponds, I'd just wear sweat pants and a t shirt, never got the deadly ball crush. Never had a single leak, never had a single problem, had all the accessories from dry gloves to rubber hood.

I really never found a happy medium between the lightness of the trilam's and the thermal protection of the neoprene suits. In hindsight I should have kept the Viking!

I personally am opting for Bruces (seasoft) suit. I think what he's done is a great concept and for the not so cold waters of Southern California, it seems to be a perfect fit. I've read the pro's and con's of his suit and I really hope it works. I was so fed up with my dry suits, I never thought I'd dive dry again! But I'm preying the seasoft suits can turn me around and give me what I'm looking for; long day comfort with some built-in warmth. Still waiting for Bruce to get back to me on an e-mail I sent him, I can't wait to test it!

 

[Johanan]

TSandM,

Hi, do you have an opinion on the new Whites Fusion One? How does it compare to the Whites Fusion Sport?

Thanks!

J.

 

[Aqua-Andy]

TSandM,

Hi, do you have an opinion on the new Whites Fusion One? How does it compare to the Whites Fusion Sport?

Thanks!

J.

I think there are a lot of people wondering this same thing. Your best bet would be to seek out your nearest Whites demo dealer and try the suit out, if you have no dealers near you I would suggest calling DRIS and talking to them. I think DUI and Whites are on the right track with there demo tours and letting people try out the suit before investing this kind of money. If you do try one out please write a quick review.

 

[Johanan]

Thanks, I wrote to DRIS already, but my nearest Whites demo dealer is in 500 miles from me. Hope, one day I'll have some business over there. I'd like to write a review if I try it.

 

[WHITES Justin]

TSandM,

Hi, do you have an opinion on the new Whites Fusion One? How does it compare to the Whites Fusion Sport?

Thanks!

J.

Hi There,

Just thought I'd jump in and explain the differences between the Fusion ONE and Fusion SPORT.

First of all the Fusion ONE is a rear entry vs. a front entry suit. The second most obvious difference is in the construction of the outer skin. The skin of the Fusion ONE is based on the Fusion TECH model so it is a combination of neoprene and lycra panels vs. the all lycra skin in the Fusion SPORT. The Fusion ONE also features the same Gator Tech armor pads on the knees as the Fusion BULLET.

Cheers,

Justin