Drowning at Windy Point 10-13-2007

[Debraw]

SNIP>Hypothetically, if an instructor removes a person from the class (which is rare and exceptional) then doesn't that also dissolve the waivers the student signed for the class?<SNIP

Yes, you would need them to sign a new waiver. My only point of contention was that if the diver was not good enough or able to dive in the class in the first place then why allow him to dive with or near the class at all?

 

[ReefHound]

Yes, you would need them to sign a new waiver. My only point of contention was that if the diver was not good enough or able to dive in the class in the first place then why allow him to dive with or near the class at all?

I think that's the big question with many of us and the one where Debbie's responses seemed to vary or waver. It would seem to me to be a mistake for the instructor to buddy with a diver *while* conducting class. It was suggested that the instructor felt like the guy was going to dive solo otherwise but you can't compromise on your standards due to implicit or explicit threats.

 

[cruiser]

Yes, you would need them to sign a new waiver. My only point of contention was that if the diver was not good enough or able to dive in the class in the first place then why allow him to dive with or near the class at all?

It seems like once the instructor kicked him out of the class because the instructor felt he wasn't up to doing the dive, that ended the student/instructor relationship, even if the guy wanted to tag along.

So did the instructor still have an obligation to him? Yes, as you would to anyone in the water, but only after his obligation to his students' well being, which comes first.

 

[Teknadv3x]

When they found this guy was the reg in or out his mouth?

 

[jac]

Telling someone to her their pie hole is just plain mean. You can tell someone to be quiet without being rude.

that may very well be. but until i told her she needed to be quiet, no one else had.i'm just not PC about it. but if you were not thinking it you should have been or you don't understand that she was putting the instructor in a very bad spot with a civil suit. a public forum such as this is not a place for her to be talking about the issues she was bringing up.
the good news is it made for a good example for my students on what to do in a missing buddy situation and when and how to initiate a search for a missing buddy. like not waiting for 45 minutes.
once again, i'm not that nice.

 

[PvilleStang]

Sorry, someone didn't introduce y'all: Hemlon, Jac. Jac, Hemlon.

 

[PvilleStang]

hehe.
pvillestang will tell ya' i'm not that nice.
but i think i taught him well none the less.

What can I say, I'm still alive, no chamber rides. I'll with-hold the next comment, because it's not PC (did they make that phrase up in Austin or California?).

 

[PvilleStang]

Hey, we learned A) don't wait 45 minutes to notify someone that there's a missing diver, and B) don't post details that don't need to be posted on here!

 

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

If you thought you learned anything useful, well then I am sorry because I think you are sadly mistaken.

First let me say that I don&#8217;t think as far as the actual diving went that Debbie or her buddy did anything wrong. I am not sure the same can be said for this instructor.

Well then feel sorry for me because here is what I take away from this thread:

First of all some instructors need peon students to stand up to them.
If I am paying for a class and the instructor starts letting people that he has deemed not qualified to do the dives still dive with us--Houston we might have a problem and I might need to point that out.

If I am paying for a class and the instructor is not paying attention to me and the class, but other people, well I am not getting my $$ worth.

I should really trust instructors a lot less. IE this thread, the thread about the instructor who died in the sink hole/cavern recently. Many instructors from reading this board like to show off for students and put them in dangerous situations. So always beware the instructor. No trust me dives ever.

If you lose you buddy under water don't wait for 45 minutes to being S&R and ask for help.

If you lose you buddy under water, the picnic tables and porta potties are not the best places to look--go back to the water.

Don't put yourself out there defending your instructor or another diver--you may not know all the facts and put yourself in the cross hairs.

If you aren't prepared for the dive--call it yourself even it you paid a lot of money for it. You can make more money later.

If your instructor tells you that you are not prepared for the class and you need to step out of the class--take some time to think about that and try to become better prepared--they may or may not be right, but you need to take some time to reflect on it. Sadly instructors almost never fail anyone, so you need to think about what was said.

Don't threaten to go off and dive solo and try to put someone on a guilt trip--don't know if this guy did that or not--but like the old song says "you got to know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em." Don't know what the conversation was, but when the instructor pulled him from the class, he should have stuck to not having him dive with the class and the guy should have respected that and taken it up with him at a later date.

If you pull someone from the class because they are not ready to make the class dives, but you still let them dive with the class--they are still making the dives you said they weren't ready to make--might want to rethink ever letting that happen.

Stay close to your buddy all the time. In low vis--get up close and personal and stay that way. If divers are bumping into you, you might need to actually be in physical contact to stay connected.--If your buddy is bug eyed--stay even closer and try to keep him looking into your eyes.

Before you lose your buddy--take time--a lot of time to think through what you might do. If an emergency happens you won't have time to think through everything at that moment.

You can learn from the deadly mistakes of others. Experience is the best teacher, but it is also the most costly. So when ever possible examine the mistakes of others and learn those hard lessons so you don't have to learn them first hand. If you have to learn these things in person--might be the last day of class.

Even if the conjecture in an accident analysis thread is wrong&#8212;I can still learn from the conjecture. The goal of the forum is to learn as much as we can about accidents and how to prevent them&#8212;not to do an inquest that will stand up in court. This forum is not to help out the dead guy and his family, but to help the living members of this forum become safer divers. The police, courts and lawyers, are the ones looking out for the interests of the dead guy.

So if someone suggests he had a stroke, heart attack, seizure, panic, nose bleed, or whatever in trying to figure out what happened, then a discussion of what went wrong and how one might have responded in a way that might have allowed the diver to live is helpful.

I have said before and I will say it again. I believe the reason I am alive today is because I read an account of a guy who died diving a wreck in the Great Lakes. Just a few days later I found myself diving with Murphy and he was in a very bad mood. Had I not read that thread and participated in, I am not sure I would have know what to do to turn that situation around. I remember thinking I am making many of the same mistakes that guy made a few days ago and those mistakes are adding up quick and if I can&#8217;t turn this dive soon&#8212;it is all over. So yes, if you are teachable you can learn a lot from these threads.

I came across this post from DumpsterDiver in another thread about what you have learned in the last year and I think these word are worth repeating and should be taken to heart by all:

This year I learned that many divers, (even experienced ones), will not take a rational look at their own diving practices and gear configurations until they have lost a good friend to a diving accident.

 

[8up]

Has anyone seen or found a, official copy of the autopsy? I would like to know what the cause was.