Dragging a flag

[Simon B.]

Does anyone drag a flag while scootering to the dive site? If so, what is your setup like or is it the same as above?

I am in Hawaii where dive flags are required, and the diver must surface within a certain radius of the flag but there are no restrictions on distance while the diver is submerged. Because of the number of boaters in the area I tow a flag around with me, not an issue when on leg power. I've found that towing an inflatable torpedo flag on DPV or even a DSMB is challenging since they get dragged down underwater and the line requires regular adjustment.

 

[sourdough]

A friend in Florida sometimes uses this when he is carrying a flag and using his large camera rig. The float line is connected to the neck of the cylinder with a carabiner though the ring. The reel is attached to the float and is kept out of the way during the dive. The flag is connected to the reel normally. He tells me the connection of the reel to the float is a weak link and would break if the flag was snagged by a boat. He uses this rig very smoothly.

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Attaching something that seems like it could yank my air source away or damage it or drag me along for the ride seems risky af.

 

[scubadada]

Attaching something that seems like it could yank my air source away or damage it or drag me along for the ride seems risky af.

These are very experienced divers and accomplished photographers, you are not.

I shared for the information, not to defend the practice, I do not use it.

 

[CT-Rich]

These are very experienced divers and accomplished photographers, you are not.

I shared for the information, not to defend the practice, I do not use it.

Diving is like driving or boating. The danger is not created by the experienced or competent. It’s the idiots doing inspired things…

 

[CT-Rich]

FYI....don't use the foam float dive flags in heavy current. My buddy and I were diving and stopped to look at something and realized the float had been pulled under, compressed by water pressure, and would no longer float. He left me on the bottom and brought the flag up to the surface and once getting there was barely missed by a powerboat. After that incident, I bought one of the round inflatable float buoys that are weghted with sand or water. They won't get dragged under. Also, I use that plastic handle and it's nice to loop your arm through. Yes it is hard to wind and unwind , but as said above that can be a feature not a bug.

I think the incident happened in the St. Lawrence River in an area of heavy current similar to Niagara. In the Niagara I used a buddy pair line with a T to the buoy line ue to low vis.

I don’t like cheap floats. My regular dive buddy offered to bring the float once… I think it is still in his shed, hidden.
Today we went to an area popular for both fishing and diving. We had 5 hooks from 3 different fishermen embedded in our float line. Two of them cut there own lines my buddy cut the third. Last time we go there unless completely desperat…

 

[johndiver999]

Does anyone drag a flag while scootering to the dive site? If so, what is your setup like or is it the same as above?

I am in Hawaii where dive flags are required, and the diver must surface within a certain radius of the flag but there are no restrictions on distance while the diver is submerged. Because of the number of boaters in the area I tow a flag around with me, not an issue when on leg power. I've found that towing an inflatable torpedo flag on DPV or even a DSMB is challenging since they get dragged down underwater and the line requires regular adjustment.

I tow a float with a scooter all the time. As already mentioned, the best way is to... have your buddy pull it.

Pulling an smb is a bad idea, they make incredible drag, only practical as a plan B.

I dive sometimes in strong currents, like 3 kts in a 100 feet (or a little deeper). Even with a scooter, when the current is ragging like that, it is NOT FUN and you have very limited mobility.

Generally use a reel and have probably 300 feet line out, maybe a little more. Generally a good spearfishing or streamlined float will not go under, but if the current is very strong, your best bet is to tow multiple floats, the first one being a little smaller, maybe 10 or 15 lbs of lift and then 10-15 ft back (at the end) you attach the larger torpedo or hard float, which can carry the flag. Some people even use three smaller floats in series. Floats in series, is much better than a single giant float.

When you hook off and stop, the first float will often get sucked under, but the second one rarely goes down, even when the first one is 10 feet deep.

Generally I connect the floatline to the front of the scooter and try not to get tangled in the line too often when it goes over my shoulder. Also try to keep it out of the props when it is slack. I generally have a small grappling hook attached independently to the front of the scooter on a lanyard (with a clip) that is just short enough that the hook can't fall down into the prop - kinda important. This configuration allows you to hook off the scooter to the bottom, and then leave the scooter to move around a little on your own power.

It also reduces the chance of loosing the scooter because it should stay connected to the floatline, even if you loose it or it takes off on its own or you have to come up without the scooter, or it floods etc. The scooter should be marked with the float. Although in a strong current, you would need a boat ride up current to drop upstream of it, in order to recover it.

Some people I know use a fixed tow line and no reel. there are advantages and disadvantages to this option. One "trick" if you go this route is to run the "hook -end" of the line through some hose that is kinda stiff. You could use maybe 8 feet of old pneumatic hose, maybe fuel line, maybe even some clear vinyl hose from home dept. Put big knots in the rope or line on both ends of the hose, so that it is very firmly affixed to the line inside and it won't slide at all. this makes the line stiff and almost impossible to get tangled in when towing and scootering. Limp rope, or reel line wraps around your first stage and valves so easily.

 

[SlugLife]

Here is a story with a couple of lessons.

I was drift diving in South Florida and pulling the flag. The weather was calm and current nearly non-existent, so I was shocked when I started feeling a strong tugging on the flag. I looked up and saw a boat by the flag and figured it had somehow gotten entangled. I waited for it to clear, but the boat gunned its engines to full power and tried to pull me up. I figured the odds of my pulling the boat down were slim, so I let go and shot a bag to replace it. I saw my distinctive dive boat appear at the surface for a while, apparently decide I was OK, and then head off.

Back on the surface, I learned what had happened. A private boat had a hunter in the water. He had used one of the reef hooks described in this thread to secure his flag while he went away hunting. His navigational skills apparently sucked, because he eventually surfaced far from his flag in the middle of our grouping of flags. Our boat asked him where his boat was and tried to raise them on the radio, but they did not have their radio on. Our boat went to that boat, told them where their diver was, and told them to turn their rado on.

That boat took off to get their diver, picked him up, and then came back to get his flag. By then our flags had drifted into that area. They chose the wrong flag and started to retrieve mine instead of his. My boat tried to tell them, but they did not have their radio on and ignored the sirens and loud speaker calls. When they could not get the flag loose with their first efforts, they gunned the engine in order to break loose the piece of reef to which it was attached. My boat checked on my dive group before chasing after the other boat to tell them they had the wrong flag.

The lessons should be clear.

• Be sure you are not firmly attached to your flag.
• If you decide to hook your flag on the reef, be sure you have good navigational skills.
• If you decide to hook your flag on the reef, be sure to have a good way to get it back without destroying the reef if your navigational skills suck.
• Remember what your flag looks like.
• Turn your radio on.

Wild story!

Perhaps one of the biggest lessons is: Other people just might be giant f*ing idiots sometimes, especially when boats are involved.

 

[Simon B.]

@johndiver999 Thanks for the ideas

 

[sourdough]

These are very experienced divers and accomplished photographers, you are not.

Oh good to know, kk it's super safe. Going to rig one up right now.

 

[jsnorman]

I would suggest a look of surgical tubing that can be used to secure the reel/line holder to your wrist when doing other things.

I use a line to a buoy with a dive flag on it all the time. It’s my concession to age (76) and the fact that I dive mostly solo. If you want to see me using this system, I suggest you watching my entire video, “Lampreys Spawning, Two Dives.” At 23 minutes and 30 seconds, it also shows me cutting myself free from monofilament fishing line.


SeaRat

This seems like the easiest solution! Will try next time. On another topic, wow. That is some serious current and muck. I have never seen the "hammerhead" thing you used to swim upstream.

Initial impressions, having not read the remainder of the thread yet.

This seems super-weird to me. How or why is the dive-shop dictating how you dive? Is this a class or dive-charter? This is a safety-hazard. You mentioned the boats playing bowling with your dive-flag of course. However, it's also a massive entanglement hazard. Worse if multiple divers are dragging around these flags.

My choices:

• Find another dive-shop
• Pretend to comply
• If it's a legal requirement see below

I was on a family vacation and just wanted to get a few dives in so I rented tanks and weights. The shop required that I take the flag since they were renting tanks to me for the dives (they gave me the flag - I only had a DSMB and they said that wasn't good enough). This was in an area in St. Thomas where there can be strong and unpredictable currents that can sweep you out to St. John if you go too far past the "point" of the bay where I was diving. The shop owner later explained that they like to keep an eye on divers - especially divers new to the area - to make sure they are not getting pulled out too far into a dangerous current (too far east). The owner did overrule the manager and let me dive without the flag on my last dive. Current was not too bad at the time maybe a couple knots, but I understand it can get a lot stronger than that.

Yeah I am not sure I think the flags are all that helpful either especially given the entanglement hazard and fisherman/boaters who target divers in some areas;, but I understand the shop wanting to make sure divers don't get into trouble with current, and to be fair I was new to the area, they didn't know my skill level, etc.

I also like diving at Blue Heron Bridge in Florida and am planning to take a few more trips there now that i have my solo cert. I know a flag is required there by local law so it seems like something i needed to figure out.