Dr Deco (and Scubaboard) on Techdiver

[ScubaBaby]

Ok, I am a rare visitor to this end of the board...and if this is what goes on.....maybe I should keep it that way.

But if you know me, you'll know my mouth is too big to stay shut for too long so I thought I'd creep in and ask....

WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON??????

OK, I looked at those links...not knowing why. Why were they posted when all they are full of are very offensive comments against both Dr Deco (who I think does a great job) and ScubaBoard (which I love to death!).

Also, just to show how dumb I can really be, who is George Irvine?

Dr Deco....I am sure the comments made from the other board have offended you, and to be honest I am not sure why they were brought to your attention in this way. I do not find it the slightest bit amusing, especially after all the hard work and effort you put in to giving advice to people who are not so fortunate as yourself to carry such a broad amount of knowledge on complex areas of diving!

I for one would like to thank you for all your efforts, as I know wherever I need the advice, you'll be on the board ready and willing.

As for the comments about this board not being up to standard...I guess that is down to their own opinions and there isnt much I cant really say in defense, however I would warn them that if they were ever on the board looking for advice....maybe we wouldnt be so warm in welcoming them!

And lastly, I hope I have been mistaken in all this, cause I am sure that thread has not only offended Dr Deco, but Mario, King Neptune, Lady Diver and all those who have put in so much to create such a helpful, informative board. Even if those idiots dont appricate you guys....I do - Thanks for everything!!!

 

[Dr Deco]

Dear ScubaBaby:

I believe that Ralph Cohn posted the links to indicate that there are different viewpoints - - and to alert us to where they are. Some of these are from divers I have not met personally (GI) but who do have some interesting tales to tell. When and if I get to meet him, possibly we can share experiences that can be of value to everyone.

Thanks to those who wrote in some nice comments about the FORUMS on this board. Rest assured that I realize that some folks on "the other Board" do say things and then later realize they were probably “just spouting off.”

I am interested in what is found out in the world of diving, since so much of what is of medical and physiological interest is not amenable to laboratory trials. While none of us likes to hear of tragedies, and deaths, often these grisly events provide information that would never be obtainable in the laboratory - - for obvious reasons. It is macabre, but we do learn more from accidents that occasionally occur. This forum is often the only way that scientists will hear of these tragedies and narrow escapes.

Dr Deco

 

[omar]

oh brother........

The techdiver mailing list is and has been a great source of information and humor. The delivery is a refreshing break from the gladhanding, attaboy, we don't want to offend you, stuff that is the norm. Don't forget that it is geared for a different type of diving. The information that can be gleaned from it is not available on this forum.

Scubababy rest assured that regulars on techdiver will not be over here asking for information.

omar

 

[rcohn]

I'll just add.

1. I read and enjoy the Ask Dr. Decompression board and believe it is an invaluable service to the scuba community. Thank you Dr. Powell.
   
2. I purposely posted links rather than copying the original text so anyone who is not interested, does not need to see or read this crap. In addition, the thread is longer than the links I posted, I cut out all posts that had nothing really to say.
   
3. I also posted this because I think with all the mindless DIR adulation and hero worship going on, we need to shine a light under the rock where they hide once in awhile and remind ourselves what these people are really like.

And ScubaBaby, you do not need to be concerned, they will never be on this board asking questions, seeking information. The only exception to this is if someone decides to do some proselytizing here and asks loaded questions, this is common on the Rodale's board.

Ralph

 

[ScubaBaby]

The reason that I was/am annoyed about those posts is down to the fact that it is very insulting.

I am a very defensive person, especially when if comes down to people who have helped me getting abused!

I am not one to sit by and let people I care about take a beating they dont deserve!

Fair enough that this board doesnt give "Tech divers" the information they need, but they need to wake up and realise that this board isnt designed for them, and the world doesnt operate around there needs.....as far as I am concerned, from the experiences i have had with tech divers they need to grow up, stop thinking they are god and get some manners before they can even start thinking about intergrating with human society!

 

[large_diver]

S-baby,

George Irvine is sort of the unofficial spokesman for the whole "Doing It Right"/DIR movement. He is a member (leader?) of the Woodville Karst Plain Project (WKPP) -- a group of divers who have done some pretty incredible diving, exploring and mapping several underground/underwater cave systems in Florida. All of the DIR gear configurations and techniques you have read about were developed by this group over time in response to the added risks of extreme cave diving. This is serious diving -- very deep depths and horizontal cave penetrations that are often measured in 1000's of feet.

Despite his status as unofficial DIR spokesman (or at least loudest/most controversial spokesman), George appears to be a somewhat reluctant king and consistently displays the attitude you saw in these posts. What you saw on these posts isn't even the worst of it. He has more than once opened his big mouth after the death of non-DIR divers he has known to basically say "the idiot wouldn't have died if he was DIR". Some would say he was only trying to help us all learn from others' tragic mistakes......it would seem that he has yet to learn what the word compassion means....

As I said above, you have to respect the incredible things these guys/girls have done and the learnings they have brought to the global scuba community. On the other hand, most normal humans don't want to listen to George when he acts like he normally does -- like some sort of crazed cult leader who demands 100% devotion.

Much of the controversy that surrounds DIR springs from the mouth and mind of George. There are also many folks who follow the DIR path who seem to take delight in mimicking his "take no prisoners" attitude, further stirring the pot. They say they are all about safety and better diving for everyone -- what they project is a elitist, hypercritical and callous attitude.

The majority of DIR divers are not like this, but it is these vocal and abrasive few who often get people's attention, tainting the first impression that many folks get of DIR.

Anyway, sorry to ramble on here and to add so much of my own blathering. Hope this was informative.

 

[blacknet]

Hello,

I have had the fortunate of dealing with both (dr deco and trey) on both list, not in person but online. My preferences goes to dr deco. See dr deco has that MD and the medical training to back him up, trey does not. Trey is NOT even a diving professional and he'll tell you so. I believe in this case he should be ignored and move on as it should be.

Oh the technicaldiving list (testosteronediver as we like to call it) is known to bash, harass and belittle for any reason at all. This list shows compassion, understanding and is quite helpful. This is just another example of it.

As for my choice, if there was 2 divers left in the world and I had to choose which to buddy and/or take any information from and trust it would be, without ANY doubt, dr deco.

Ed

 

[Iguana Don]

I am going to defend the "Techdiver List".

The lady stepped into an arena that is not only viscous, unforgiving and rude but also very knowledgeable in the areas they are discussing. The "Tech Community" is very close knit and somewhat secretive but forums like "Techdiver" allow for an information exchange that until the invent of the internet was not possible except in the written word and through discussions at events.

I read "Techdiver" on a daily basis, there is lots of useful information there, some which I have passed on here. I very rarely make any posts as most of the information I seek is in the archives of the forum. There are several hard and fast rules, 1)Don't ask a question that has already been covered and is in the archives. 2)Before replying to a topic, you had better have done your homework. Violate these rules and you face the wrath of the forum. It is not for the faint hearted.

As with any group of scientists or researchers (and that is what techdivers are) you will have opposing views on any particular topic. Especially one that has no cut and dried definitions, such as decompression theory. I am sure that if it were known, Dr.Deco has had some pretty heated discussions himself. Anybody that has a passion and knowledge for a topic and is steadfast in their beliefs can't avoid this.

To compare Scubasource and Techdiver is like comparing apples and oranges (both being fruits), the only thing we have in common is that we are both divers, other than that we have nothing in common.

Like Dr.Deco stated decompression theory is not high on the US Government's priority list. And the things that he has given us are no longer cutting edge. So, somebody in the private sector with enough money and enough drive has taken over the reins. Before I go any further I would like to mention that I DO NOT WORSHIP GI3, that being said I will continue. Like him or not, you cannot ignore what he and his group have accomplished for diving. And sooner or later some of the things that they have accomplished will trickle down to the recreational diving sector. We can thank the "technical community" for Nitrox, HID lights, better BCs, these off the top of my head.

"mindless DIR adulation and hero worship", not me, I dive DIR cause it makes sense, if you don't that's your choice. But I will not criticize you or anybody else for not diving the way I do. And again I do not worship GI3.

Most people that don't like "Techdiver" have had a bad experience on it and have probably violated the rules and faced the wrath.

IMHO, I feel that GI3 is the way he is because, if you warn people over and over about a topic and they continue to ignore you and some end up dying, you start to get pissed and calloused. Examples are deep air diving and Inspiration Rebreathers, both of which have been warned against for some time. But agencies are still teaching and people are still diving this and people are still dying. Why?

Dr.Deco gives us lots of useful information, studies he's conducted and participated in. Shared his knowledge from what he has learned at NASA and from DSAT. But (no reflection to Dr.Powell) he has been cut off due to funding.
He still seeks further knowledge as any scientist does that has a drive and passion for a topic. All eyes in the diving industry, agencies, manufactures, Govt agencies research facilities, hyperbaric medicine are on what the group at WKPP are doing and what they are accomplishing. He/they will change the way things are done.

Just my views

ID

 

[blacknet]

Hello,

Like any new agency they want to get out the correct information and make everyone safer, better and more knowledgable divers. It took IANTD something like 16 years (not exactly sure of the number but in that ball park) for the first death to (training accident I think it was).

There is a difference between getting the information out to the public and changing viewpoints by force. When you have one person who demands everyone follow his lead and makes (what I consider) rash post like the "heavy exercises after extensive decompression" or the "hydration makes no difference" or even the "I can run grade 4 bubbles and not take ANY dci whatsoever". As you can see I seriously dislike GI3.

As for the methods and techniques that "DIR" preaches I can see the pros but I can also see cons. I also realize that it's not for everyone. Over the years I have watched the "DIR" community attempt to push their methods and techniques onto everyone with no compassion or consideration for the scope that DIR applies. My thoughts are one must look at the person, the diving situation and the goals, THEN evaluate the methods one must employ.

I also fail to see any medical proof to justify the remarks that trey wrote or his medical training history. All I see is boast and a blown up ego, not to mention mindless minions.

In professional communities you will have debates and differences of opinions, this community is no different. To have a contrast of this nature (i.e. what and how it was said) is definately unprofessional. Here, would YOU goto a medical doctor who did nothing but bash, harass, belittle, call you vulgar names and demand you follow him and workship him? What happens when that person is a high school teacher? I think we all can relate to this and understand where i'm going with this. There's one thing to have a difference of opinon and another to goto extreme.

If GI3 is really concerned about these horrors you stated then he would have adapted a more compassion approach, he could easily *EASILY* adopt a public relations standpoint and help educate the public to better safety methods.

The people are a good group of divers and does have am imprssive track record. As for the inspiration section I posted to the list asking for details of the deaths to find out if they was related to a) training standards (i.e. user using the unit wrong), b) equipment failures (i.e. unit failing under normal conditions), c) design flaws (i.e. unit failing on non-normal conditions) or what have you. I have yet to receive ANY information from the list except harassment. It does make a difference. (perhaps this is where we should start a new thread on this section)

Ed

 

[Dr Deco]

Dear Readers:

Please allow me a few more comments on the decompression physiology material that has passed in the last two days on the ASK DR DECO column.

When I stated that funding for research is down, I was referring to the world in general. At NASA, there are funds for research but this is in ALTITUDE decompression sickness, not in diving DCS. What is presented in the Dr Deco forum concerns DCS as studied at altitude wuith the results translated into scuba diving situations.

The reason that this research is of value is the high incidence of DCS that we encounter during our studies. While diving researchers might see a few percent DCS at most, and table designers not see any at all (as in the DSAT/PADI study), altitude research DCS can run easily 10% to 30%. We can tolerate this because the subjects are repressurized to sea level and all of the problems abate. Since the altitude "diver” is essentially “repressurized” to “bottom”, the reoccurrence of symptoms is very seldom. Thus, we are able to study such effects as stress and strain in body activity, effects of gender, body weight, and so forth in situations that really provoke the appearance of these differences.

In addition to this, there is a very large amount of data that was generated, and in the literature, for the era of the Second World War. Here we saw a very large number of trials performed in altitude chambers on what causes DCS. These experiments were very stressful and “heroic” by today’s standards. However, when a “shooting war” is in progress, lab trails pale in comparison to the real danger on the field (or in the sky).

Lastly, I am not a physician (MD). My degrees are a BS in chemistry and an MS and PhD in molecular biophysics. Physiology and medicine has been learned from three decades (since 1969) or work in barophysiology. {It is for this reason that I do not offer medical advice, but only comment on decompression biophysics. Although that is not to say that I do not know the answer to many medical questions - - I just do not put them out in public in written form.}

I enjoy hearing about the experiences of technical diving for a very specific reason. It is a theoretical one and concerns NASA operations. Tech divers (e.g., cave divers) perform long decompressions while in the water, a condition in which they are essentially weightless. This same weightless condition occurs to astronauts while they are in orbit. While this is not controlled science, it is nevertheless interesting anecdotal information that can be used to filling in missing data points and helps to expand the theory. It is too long to explain the biophysics here (sign up for the Decompression Physiology class if you have a deep, abiding interest in this).

Dr Deco :doctor: