Dr Deco (and Scubaboard) on Techdiver

[ckharlan66]

Ed

I understand your concerns and I feel that this is exactly why this issue if discussed in a friendly manner on this board could be very informative and educational to those same new inexperienced divers.

I appreciate your responses and hopefully others will start to objectively discuss this issue as you I have been.

Thanks

Chad

 

[rainreg]

Hello again in reply to your request to elaborate on number 2 and 3.

Well here it goes:

As far as #2 I will post the DIR philosophy and piece by piece I will shed light onto each remark and statement as to where it was derived from and Approximate time frames most of which were before Gi3 was a diver. This will take me a little bit of time to do because I want to provide you with the facts you request as accurately and succinctly as possible

Second, in reference to #3
There already is and has been equipment out there made by Dive Rite, OMS and others that is as good if not better than Halcyon's stuff, and yes from a very reliable source it is true that GI3 has ownership in shares or other of Halcyon, so I can see why he wants people to buy their stuff only... The So called quality stuff; well there are numerous people (experienced cavers and rebreather divers that would tout those claims).

I for one only cave dive as a volunteer to do body recovery. So my wishes are to enlighten, and inform so I have to do less voluntary work. I am not implying that GI3 or DIR is the cause but they are not helping things by presenting information in such a one-dimensional arena. There are many types of gear made by many manufacturers that can perform and fulfill the mission / diver's criteria for diving caves.

So look around and shop. If you need performance data I can find it (in most cases). I will get to work on your request and be back to the board to post it ASAP.

Michael Rainone

U.S. Navy Saturation Diver

 

[ckharlan66]

Thanks Mike,

I think that that is the attitude that both sides need to take in order to express thier point of view. If we all took that approach then maybe this thread could actually provide us all with further knowledge instead of a ready battle ground.

Some times I wonder how humble my opion really is.

Once agian rainreg thank you for providing information to us all in a informative, non confrontational manner

Chad

 

[Lost Yooper]

Mike, I look forward to your piece.

As a matter of interest for others, GUE's web site has some of the history of DIR written up. FYI, GUE trains divers in DIR principles. You'll find that in your reading of GUE's web site, particular name brands don't appear to be too important for their courses. The web site makes it pretty clear that DIR doesn't HAVE to be nearly as ridged as some people portray (both DIRers and non DIRers alike).

Keep in mind the GUE's president is Jarrod Joblonski -- Irvine's partner in crime for the extreme dives. Jarrod tends to be a "bit more diplomatic" in his approach, however. http://www.gue.com

Mike

 

[BetterLateThannever]

I, for one, am not offended by passion or confrontation. I find it a welcome relief from most people's milk-toast approach to every subject.

That's not the same as being abusive or profane, I would agree that these are never constructive and best left elsewhere, but I believe the exchange of ideas is much more real and useful when people of "real" conviction debate.


Anyway, that's my opinion.

 

[ckharlan66]

BLT,

Thank you for the welcome.

I agree totally that people should express thier views and question things that they don't agree with but I feel that this can be done in a constructive and open minded way. Not all but several, of the post on this thread were not approached in this manner.

It appears as though this is changing now and we are starting to communicate our views and opinions in a constructive nonconfrontational manner.

Once agian thanks to all who are helping to educate me and further my diving knowledge.

Chad

 

[rcohn]

To: Lost Yooper

1. Millions of safe non-DIR dives have been done. There are roughly 100 sport diver deaths in the US out of millions of dives per year assuming around 2.5 million divers. What does 16000 dives mean, most of which were short support penetrations? There should be no deaths with that low a number.

2. Why don't you present a view beyond saying DIR is mostly right. I've made comments with still no response.

3. That's sad, the statement was certainly not a compliment. There are several divers (all male) I've seen frequenting this board who have posted on Techdiver. Only Marie had the balls to stand up and support the Scubaboard in the face of the criticism and ridicule. You may not be “his mama” but your certainly are his cheerleader.

4. Do your homework and read the thread you are so passionately commenting on. Too long for you, I’ll give you a hint, just read the posts I’ve written to find out what I’ve had to say.

5. No homework here to do, there isn’t any published information, just grandiose claims on Techdiver. It’s easy to be always be right if you conceal your data and never permit peer review/

6. You seem to want it both ways. You passionately advocate the DIR system while you say you don’t agree with all of it. You challenge us to show where the system isn’t ideal, ignoring our comments when we do so, and declining to reveal the issues that prevent you from being 100% DIR.

7. As I have said, IMO you began the insults not I. You are defending GI3 and Techdiver, “I started out the same as everyone else here, but I was able to see the substance of his/their discussions rather than the BS. ”

8. If the point of this discussion was changing your mind I never would have begun, it’s a waste of time. I have no real interest in what you think. Many people are reading this thread and I hope my comments and those of others reach them. Do you realize you just dumped a half dozen GUE/DIR links on a newbie in a different thread who hasn’t even begun her BOW class yet? Do you really think she needs or wants to learn how to rig a stage, the correct placement of an argon bottle, or which post the hoses go on a set of doubles? While DIR zealots proselytize on the board, you can expect some of us to challenge you.


To: ckharlan66

You should realize that while this may be new to you it has become very very old to many of us. I have been on the scuba boards for nearly four years. That's four years of having the DIR zealots harangue us with their narrow-minded views and insults. It’s not even GI3 that is so hard to take, it’s the unrelenting cast of characters (ignoring those on Scubaboard), this includes notables such as Volker, Kolpin, Farmer, Cobb, Blitch, Jammer 6, cast55, Kane, joeldm, Holcomb, and many others who don’t immediately come to mind. It never seems to stop, it just grows worse as more converts join in. We’ve been called strokes, lectured at every turn, given bad advice -- no ponys, no computers, narcotic depths limits as shallow as 80 feet, deep air, solo diving, backplate and wings, 7 ft hoses, you’ll die if you use an Air II,no HP tanks, called deco weenies, no steel tanks with wetsuits, and often wrong information about DIR itself -- repeated over and over and over again.

I don't dislike the system (though I have a few issues with it), I have learned all I can about DIR diving and adopted an number of the gearing ideas. However, I have really grown to despise the zealots and the DIR cult leaders that encourage their conduct. I've avoided answering most DIR posts and certainly do not wish to be known as a DIR basher, but it's enough already. This cult can't be allowed to take over every board. Techdiver is an exclusive DIR list, rec.scuba is an endless DIR anti-DIR flame war, many of the best contributors are gone. On Rodale's we are lectured constantly, although some have decided we are too stupid and given up (Joeldm said so on Techdiver). It would be nice if Scubaboard remained an open forum free of the unending harassment.

Whenever someone wants to discuss real information in this thread or others I'm happy to contribute if I can. I'm still waiting to see a defense of DIR with some substance in this thread.

Ralph

 

[Warhammer]

Originally posted by rcohn
It would be nice if Scubaboard remained an open forum free of the unending harassment.

Ralph, rest assured that Scubaboard will remain free of harassment, if I have anything to do with it. As you may have noticed, KN is probably the fastest gun in the west when it comes to dealing with unconstructive posters. That's one of the great things about this place, it's not owned by some large corporation that could careless who says what or does what to whom, nor one that would just assume pull it offline instead of dealing with the issues effecting it's members. It's a place where all divers, DIR or otherwise, are encouraged to get involved and post, but harassment will not be tolerated. This has become a second home for alot of us and don't think for a minute that we're going to let some 2 bit trouble maker come in a trash our house. As far as disagreements go, they are also learning experiences for all of us and that's good, as long as they are kept civil. Besides if we all agreed on everything this would be a dull place, no?

The DIR vs non-DIR issue is an old one from which many battles have been fought over, so I'm watching this thread with the outmost interest. Maybe this thread is where we'll finally get to the bottom of it. Myself, I'm not DIR, nor do I plan on being in the near future. But what I will do is listen and learn and if I see a technique that I feel is better than the way I currently do the same, I'll use it, DIR or not.

Well, I've got a plane to catch, you guys be good.

 

[omar]

Rainreg,
I have moved my questions over to a new thread to reduce the volume of chaff.

omar

 

[scubakat]

Originally posted by omar
It reaches the sublime when a Dive Rite or Abyss or locally made back plate is not DIR. I have been told that this was the response of the guys at 5th Dimension (Seattle) to a Scott Koplin made BP.

I would be curious to know the details of this situation. 5th D is my LDS and I have never been shunned or treated with anything but respect, even when I have disagreed with their ideas. And I do not dive DIR.

Now with that said, 5th D is a RETAIL DIVE SHOP, not a philanthropic entity, and they sell gear, including but not limited to Halcyon, Dive Rite, and OMS. I don't think that a retail salesperson is the best person to ask about your DIR needs.

Incidentally(or not), the owner of 5th D is also the GUE Training/Education Director. When I inquired about the GUE recreational DIR class I was told that my regular back inflation style BC would be acceptable.

-kate