Dr Deco (and Scubaboard) on Techdiver

[ScubaBaby]

That you don't realise that ScubaBoard is not based for TECHDIVERS.

Unfortunately, as you techdivers believe, us novices dont live up those those high quality standards....and believe it or not arent prepared to back an arse who doesnt know the fine art of being civil to people.

It would appear that many people believe that same as me in the fact that if someone cant master the act of politeness, there is no way I'd trust any of the drivel that comes from that mouth without evidence of whatever he's talking about.

If your behind TechChat, do you believe in what was said in the posts which have been linked to this thread?

And if you do, what the hell are you doing here if scubaboard is so useless?????

 

[blacknet]

Hello,

SVS3, what other agencies, methods and training standards have you tried? How many of them have you read in detail? How many different equipment configurations have you tried?

I do *NOT* want bad mouthing of ANYTHING, I merely want the facts presented in an unbiased method that is free from personal judgment and personal motivation. Give me the facts and let ME make my own decisions. I do want someone to give me stats as to why these units are 'death traps'. You can't expect equipment manufactures to change their designs because someone thinks it's broke or thinks it's wrong, they want hard core valid proof to substain the claims, no proof no change.

Don't believe all the hype you hear about their safety records. They are quick to disown people who follow in their shoes and even the dead. It would be interesting to see exactly how many accidents/fatalities really are related to them.

It is mostly the mentality of 'group think' that is bad for that group. For the "equaly comprehensive dive philosophy" statment have you noticed what AGENCY most all of the GUE instructors received their training from? Go look and report back here when you have that answer

Ed

 

[rcohn]

Dr. Cohn,

Actually, rule number 2 is: Don't heed the advice of strokes.

Please provide a reference. I don't believe any DIR source has ever used the word "heed". The reference below presents the "Don't listen to strokes" rule.
Look at the bottom on:
http://www.staffdivers.com/dir_wkpp.htm

Again:

Will someone explain to how diving DIR with any dive profile increases my chances of dieing, being injured, or getting bent?

I'd be happy to. DIR diving dictates the use of backplate and wings, which is appropriate for technical diving. Technical divers do not have the luxury of shooting straight to the surface in an emergency.

In shallow recreational diving, the surface, where there is air to breathe, is the diver's safe haven. In an emergency with a diver incapacitated by injury, stroke, heart attack, embolism, shock, exhaustion, etc. the backplate and wings will place the diver on his/her face where they will drown. The more a diver trys to inflate the wing the greater the tendency to be pushed on your face. This is in no way the SAFEST system. The DIR folks recommend all BOW students be taught using BP. I help with teaching and certification dives. There is no way many of the nervous students with weak water skills belong in a BP setup. It is not the safest system for their skill level and diving.

Another issue, the long hose can allow a panicky diver to get away from you. How can you control a diver rushing to the surface at the end of your 7 ft hose, kicking you in the head as he goes?

What is the safest system in a cave is in no way the safest for all situations.

Ralph

 

[rainreg]

Hi Svs3,

I’d be glad to provide you with the documentation and proof should you request it. State exactly what you wish. As far as the "DIR Philosophy" is concerned, it is only a conglomerate of tried and true techniques that the U.S. Navy, NOAA and several other agencies have been using for a long time [Long before DIR and GUE ever existed. Also before George was ever a cave diver].

As far as Rebreather knowledge goes - anything to add, George? What type of experience does he have with rebreathers, other than a few, however long, dives on the Halcyon fridge? So who is he to quantify any input on rebreather use or other. There is nothing new about this "Mindset" as they so state. They just want you to believe that it’s new or their idea.

If you are asking for documentation on the shortcomings of the DIR philosophy, well, the DOD Archives are full of reports. Be specific on what you want: Decompression schedules? Deep Dive Protocols? Deep Dive Procedures and Standards?

To many people –“divers” – follow George and every word he utters like sheep without even asking for any proof of his procedures (which he cannot provide). What he can provide are loads of insults, bad attitudes, and twisted facts. Deception is a powerful tool, especially if you don't even realize you are being deceived! If you chose to follow George that’s your deal but don’t come to this board and sell his poison. We want no part of it or the Wonderful, Cheery Attitude that goes along with it.

This board is designed to provide diving related facts, experience and dialogue so people can make a conscious decision on what type of gear they want to use or what type of diving they want to do. We have not dictated to anyone that they need to dive this type of gear only, in this type of setup only, and with this type of mindset only! Get the message! We are not sheep here. We ask the hard questions and we answer those question the best we can, based on facts and experience.

Michael Rainone
U.S. Navy Saturation Diver

 

[bradymsu]

Sam,

I think you're a bit off on the SSI solo diving certification deal. As an SSI DiveCon, I can guarantee you that SSI does not offer a solo diving certification and instead strongly recommends that open water divers avoid solo diving.

From what I've read, I'm seeing a mixed message about DIR from DIR divers. Some say that DIR is only about technical cave diving while others say it works equally well from technical wreck diving and some like GUE, even suggest it for basic OW diving. My objections with DIR are as follow:

1. DIR divers agressively promote their style on the web leading many wanna be tech divers and even some OW divers to get their education off the computer rather than from a certified instructor who can provide direct feedback and eliminate potentially deadly misunderstandings.

2. DIR does not allow for the use of dive computers. Considering that today's computers are far less likely to fail or make miscalculations than humans it's crazy for an OW diver and non-Trimix tech divers to be encouraged not to use them. Computers rarely make miscalculations and computers never panic due to task overloading when a dive plan unexpectedly changes underwater.

3. The very common DIR attitude as shown by the tech board often treats divers with sincere questions as stupid and not worthy of a response. This isn't just George I'm talking about but a lot of the DIR divers who've picked up this attitude from him. Just from reading the postings of DIR divers on various topics on this board, it's apparent that they have a much more hostile attitude than the diving community at large. The argument that you're going to bully divers into diving safe shows a serious misunderstanding of human nature.

4. DIR does not encourage its adhearants to approach diving with an open mind. It's very rigid. Be it religion, politics, economics, mathematics, etc., history has shown time and time again that this mindset is dangerous.

That said, DIR does do some good things. In particular, I agree with their approach to personal health, intense technical skills training, pre-dive planning and buddy diving which I think isn't taken as seriously as it should be by most divers. But IANTD, for one, also teaches these things with a much less hostile attitude and in the end produces students who I think are better divers and better people because of it.

 

[DiverDave]

The "Solo Diver" ticket is offered by SDI

 

[Mario S Caner]

Indeed it is. Check This Link dated 03/09/01 for the first time we talked about it.

 

[ScubaBaby]

I know I havent been the most dipolmatic person involved in this thread.....however I can change my role!

Everyone has there own points of view on this matter and to be honest we arent going to convince one another about the others view...therefore....I vote we all agree to disagree about this.

 

[rcohn]

We disagree once again ScubaBaby.

Clearly nothing any of us may say will change the minds of the DIR zealots, they believe every word GI3 says without question or critical thought. It is no more useful to discuss issues with them than it is to talk to members of any religious cult. I'm not writing any of this for their benefit.

However, they are constantly proselytizing on the scuba boards looking for new converts. This is a good discussion because it provides an opportunity to let impressionable potential converts see that different legitimate alternative viewpoints do exist, that everything GI3 says is not necessarily correct, and reveals the kind of people that are controlling and promoting the DIR approach.

The discussion has remained very polite, just imagine what it would sound like if it was held on Techdiver, and useful information and viewpoints continue to be presented. There is no reason to stop the thread at this time.

Ralph

 

[Green_Manelishi]

I know, and consider to be a friend, Dr. Cohn.

Not too many weeks ago he and I did a dive together
that is by "rec" standards DEEP (ie. over 60 feet).

He was wearing his SCUBAPro 'jacket' style BC with a single
tank and I my BP/wing and doubles.

Although it was not the best dive I've ever done (too early
in the morning) we had GREAT fun. Actually, EVERYONE on the
boat had great fun.

FWIW: I agree with my friend, and others, that if someone makes a statement that is provable (or dis-provable) you'd better provide the evidence to support your claim. Otherwise, it is OPINION: perhaps based on YOUR comfort but it is an OPINION none-the-less.

I also have found myself in agreement with him, and others
that I've come to know and become friends, that not ALL
procedures/equipment are CORRECT for ALL environments or
divers.

dive safe, dive smart.

G_M

ps. i suspect the true DIR-sciples will now want to beat
me to within an inch of my life.