Down deep...things to remember

[DeepSeaDan]

I've dove a bunch of times with Pug off of his boat and mine. We've never had a hang bottle on any of the dives. Besides Ricks scenario, needing a hang bottle equals poor planning. FWIW - you'll be lucky to find a more competent diver to buddy with than UP. What you assume to be a cavalier attitude about not allowing incompetent divers on his boat is hardly that. Neither one of us are willing to take out divers that don't plan their dive and then stick to their plan. Part of any plan is contingencies.

Plan your dive for rock bottom or plan your dive with the law of thirds. This will take care of your buddy team.

Last month I was on a charter with eight others to dive some wrecks. There was a hang bottle at 20'. On the last dive my buddy and another team came up the wrong line. The four of us finished out a one hour dive with deco, with the lowest (back gas) tank being 1000 psi. We had a 50' surface swim to the boat. We made a mistake on which line to ascend and it's a good thing that we had all planned and stuck to our dive. Had we blown off our plan because there was a hang bottle, then someone would have gotten bent.

Pardon me for the confusion but are you saying you would have "blown off your plan" by using air from a cylinder staged as an EMERGENCY AIR SOURCE? Are you saying that with all of your training & experience, you would have contravened a simple directive from the Divemaster / Boat Captain? Please correct me if I've misunderstood you.

D.S.D.

 

[Rick Murchison]

So could've a bit of Helium in they're mix.

if they had been carrying their gas with them instead of staging it they wouldn't have needed *saving*.Not to mention if they had been using the correct gas, ect. ect.

GMAB! So could this and that and the other have saved them; a whole list of things. But just because something else could have saved them as well doesn't detract from the fact that a hang bottle could too.
(In other words, you could say "a bit of helium could have saved them" and I could say "so could a hang tank" and that wouldn't negate the value of the helium)
As for carrying their gas with them, that wasn't an option as it would have made penetration much more difficult and prone to entanglement, if not impossible.
Y'all wanted an example of a case where a hang tank would have worked in an unforeseen emergency and I gave you one.
---
Look, I agree with y'all that if the dive plan needs a hang tank to be a safe plan then it ain't safe in the first place. But to assume "hang tank=poor planning" (even though the incident that started this thread is a great illustration of that) is just wrong. There are mature divers out there who make good plans and execute safe dives and still hang gas, whether in a tank or on a 20' hose.
I don't allow smoking on my boat. But if you want to hang a tank, have at it.
Rick

 

[simbrooks]

Many operators in the Keys hang a bottle "just in case", as they do not necessarily know who would be on their boat and their experience etc. - so in that case I would say an operator taking "tourists" or "day trippers" would be mitigating some risk by having a bottle (although all divers are responsible for their ownb dive plans and managing their own air).

How many of these divers have ever come up the wrong line, particularly somewhere like SG? We also had one operation that moved from one line to another while we were down as it was a better mooring - didnt help us as we didnt know till we surfaced, now that is nearly unforeseen, but we had the gas to get up and enough to get up the buddy team from 100+ft.

 

[DeepSeaDan]

This is a very different scenario than what Q was roasting Pug over.

The bottom line though is no matter who you are, the need to use a hang bottle equals poor planning or poor gas management. This is the point that UP is trying to instill in people reading this.

...I never knew there to be so many omnicient participants on this board.

...I've been around, done alot , seen more, & I know in my heart-of-hearts that till the day I die I will not have seen it all...

...I am indeed, an envious man.

D.S.D.

 

[OE2X]

Pardon me for the confusion but are you saying you would have "blown off your plan" by using air from a cylinder staged as an EMERGENCY AIR SOURCE? Are you saying that with all of your training & experience, you would have contravened a simple directive from the Divemaster / Boat Captain? Please correct me if I've misunderstood you.

D.S.D.

No what I'm saying is that we made a mistake and came up the wrong line. The hang bottle was nowhere to be found if we had needed it. We did not make the hang bottle a part of our plan and so it was never an issue. The only issue was that we failed to come up the right line.

Another scenario that could be applied to this arguement: Lets say you get blown off the up line because of current. What do you do? In our case all four of us had SMB's and reels. We could have easily deployed one when we knew that we were blown off the wreck. We still would have been able to hold our stops and finish out our required deco with out any issues. Having a hang bottle would not be a factor here.

 

[Mako Mark]

What emergency would that be?

BTW... part of my planning is not to take folks who have those kinds of emergencies out on my boat in the first place.

You are sounding a little petulant today Pug, or did a sea flea crawl up your long hose??

I know where you are going with this though, but regarding your "take all your gas with you" rule and whole I tend to agree with you, BUT, would you drop a stage bottle in a cave or a deco bottle outside a wreck??

Because that is really the same thing isn't it?

 

[boomx5]

...I've been around, done alot , seen more
D.S.D.

Yes...but has it been on Scuba or is it all commercial diving with surface assistance? Not that, that is an issue, but we need to compare apples for apples here. One of my best friends and my main dive buddy is a commercial diver and has been one for many years. However, when we plan a dive we are doing so for our application (scuba) and not according to his profession.

 

[OE2X]

...I never knew there to be so many omnicient participants on this board.

...I've been around, done alot , seen more, & I know in my heart-of-hearts that till the day I die I will not have seen it all...

...I am indeed, an envious man.

D.S.D.

I don't think any of us see ourselves as omniscient, certainly not myself. You have to agree, particularly with the amount of experience that you have, that dependence on a "What If" bottle equals poor planning or gas management. Can it save someone - perhaps. Wouldn't it be better for divers to rely on planning and better gas management skills than this? You are an instructor and I'm sure that you teach your students about dive planning and GM. What folks tend to do though is get complacent with these two skills if they know they have a bailout.

 

[DeepSeaDan]

Yes...but has it been on Scuba or is it all commercial diving with surface assistance? Not that, that is an issue, but we need to compare apples for apples here. One of my best friends and my main dive buddy is a commercial diver and has been one for many years. However, when we plan a dive we are doing so for our application (scuba) and not according to his profession.

...has more to do with my experiences as a Firefighter than as a diver, though in both commercial & scuba I've seen some stuff that I wouldn't of believed could happen.

...Again, for the simplicity of it ( hanging an emergency u/w air source ), I see no reasonable excuse not to. You can manage gas till the cows come home & still somewhere, sometime, the bottle might save a life because the "unlikely" or the "unforseeable" or the UNBELIEVABLE happened ( previously reffered to as "poop" ).

...Ya know, the Rescue / Pumper I use at work is crammed full of tools & equipment. Do I use all this stuff every day? No. Do I use most of it regularly? No. There are items on the truck that very rarely get used at all - but there there if we need them. We take with us as much as we can carry - just in case. We do this because we know, from experience ( ours & others ), that nothing is impossible. So we do all that we can to be ready.

Thus staging an emergency air source, to be used only if absolutely necessary, is just one of many aspects of prudent contingency planning. Anyone misusing the supply would be grounded for the remainder of the day & then asked to never return.

D.S.D.

 

[DeepSeaDan]

I don't think any of us see ourselves as omniscient, certainly not myself. You have to agree, particularly with the amount of experience that you have, that dependence on a "What If" bottle equals poor planning or gas management. Can it save someone - perhaps. Wouldn't it be better for divers to rely on planning and better gas management skills than this? You are an instructor and I'm sure that you teach your students about dive planning and GM. What folks tend to do though is get complacent with these two skills if they know they have a bailout.

...perhaps."

Thats all I ask.

Nowhere in this dialogue have I suggested / condoned the use of an emergency air supply as something to be "depended upon" as part of a dive plan. The location & rules of use for the emergency supply should be clearly explained & understood by every diver on board. If someone demonstrates the stupidity to use it otherwise - kick em' off the boat - for good.

My reference to omnicience betrays my frustration with those who are so confident in their ability to micro-manage away every conceivability, they forsake a simple, additional option that just might make a difference to someone, someday.

D.S.D.