Double Tank Manifolds, Bad Idea!

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The OP does make some good points. If you are unable to reach your valves, or do not understand how to manipulate them when solving problem, then yes manifolded doubles are probably not a good idea.

If manifolded doubles are going to be used, then valve drills should be practiced enough that muscle memory will kick in during a stressful situation.

Muscle memory is nice, but before you start turning knobs, you need to know which knobs to turn. Quite often it takes a little while to figure out where the bubbles are coming from and what needs to be shut off. Also, a drysuit and thick underwear with drygloves makes valve access quite difficult even for the flexible among us.

Having switched to sidemount, I don't think I'd ever go back to doubles again. The only advantage I can come up with for manifolded doubles is that it's not necessary to switch regs to balance usage. Everything else is more difficult.

flots
 
Muscle memory is nice, but before you start turning knobs, you need to know which knobs to turn. Quite often it takes a little while to figure out where the bubbles are coming from and what needs to be shut off. Also, a drysuit and thick underwear with drygloves makes valve access quite difficult even for the flexible among us.

Having switched to sidemount, I don't think I'd ever go back to doubles again. The only advantage I can come up with for manifolded doubles is that it's not necessary to switch regs to balance usage. Everything else is more difficult.

flots

I agree, you need to think about what you are doing rather than just going through the motions.

When ice diving, I wear my drysuit with thick underwear and dry gloves and can still do a valve drill quite effortlessly. When that changes, I will likely go sidemount.
 
Case Study

You want to visit the Gunilda on OC and through your dive planning you determined that you will need 260 cu ft of bottom gas (2 HP130s), 2 Al80s and one Al40 full of three different deco gases. You're one of those divers that likes to carry all his gas supplies with him. You do not drop a needed deco tank for later pickup. You don't like the possibility of not being able to finding it later. How would you distribute your gas supplies around your body? What are the gas switching sequences like?

Manifolded Doubles

Initial Configuration: Manifolded double HP130s on the back. First and 2nd deco gas bottles (Al 80s) slinging from left chest and hip D-rings. Third deco gas bottle (Al 40) either attached to a leash clipped on the left D-ring or slinging from the right chest and hip D-rings.

  • You initiate descent on a normoxic or hyperoxic gas*. After a few seconds descending you switch to back gas and neatly stow the initial normoxic regulator away. You keep on breathing back gas on the long hose for all of the bottom portion and during ascent until you reach your first deco gas switch depth.

  • At that point you deploy first deco gas regulator and clip the long hose regulator to your right chest D-ring. You stay on the first deco gas during ascent until you reach 2nd deco gas switch depth.

  • On 2nd deco gas switch depth you deploy its regulator and neatly stow away first deco gas regulator. Move first deco gas tank out of the way to the leash clipped on the left hip D-ring. Move 3rd deco gas bottle to be slinging from the left chest and hip D-rings.

  • On 3rd deco gas switch depth you deploy its regulator and neatly stow away 2nd deco gas regulator. Breath 3rd deco gas until surfacing**.

  • Upon surfacing and reaching the boat, hand all deco bottles to crew and board the boat with doubles on your back.

Independent Back Mounted Doubles
Proponents please fill in the blanks here. I'm particularly interested in tank distribution configurations and in your protocols for breathing down bottom gas tanks.

Sidemount
Proponents please fill in the blanks here. I'm particularly interested in tank distribution configurations and in your protocols for breathing down bottom gas tanks.

*Some divers are proponents of starting descent with hypoxic back gas since they only have to hold their breath for a few seconds until they reach a depth were back gas is no longer hypoxic. This approach does not require any gas switches on descent. Surface conditions can dictate whether they start descent hypoxic or not.

**Some divers might add back gas breaks or "air breaks" at this point or near to it, but that is another discussion.
 
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. Using the rule of thirds while diving, I always have enough gas in either tank to—in the event of a failure, ANY TYPE OF TANK OR REGULATOR FAILURE—simply switch regulators, turn the dive, and go home!.

Unless you exit slower than you came in due to crappy viz, or you're stressed, or you have a lot of deco to do...............................

Thirds is not always good enough.
 
When I am diving my manifolded doubles, both tanks are draining at the same rate no matter which reg I am breathing from and have a pressure gauge on the left. Thirds is easy, since it is 1/3 of my starting pressure.

However, I have a few questions about independent doubles.

Do you breathe down one tank and then switch, or do you swap regs during the dive to keep the tanks balanced?

How do you calculate thirds? I am guessing you would have to do a little bit of math adding the pressure used from both tanks to determine 1/3 gas used.

Are pressure gauges clipped on d-rings on both the left and right hips?
 
When I am diving my manifolded doubles, both tanks are draining at the same rate no matter which reg I am breathing from and have a pressure gauge on the left. Thirds is easy, since it is 1/3 of my starting pressure.

However, I have a few questions about independent doubles.

Do you breathe down one tank and then switch, or do you swap regs during the dive to keep the tanks balanced?

How do you calculate thirds? I am guessing you would have to do a little bit of math adding the pressure used from both tanks to determine 1/3 gas used.

Are pressure gauges clipped on d-rings on both the left and right hips?

If I’m using Al80s I breath each down 1000 psi at the start, then around 500 psi increments there after, It doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t go below your min turn psi on either one, pretty simple.
I wear two identical air integrated computers, one on each wrist, this way I can monitor both my tanks at a glance even when using my scooter, I also have SPGs on each hip as back-up. I find hip mounted SPGs on short hoses (22&#8221:wink: very stream lined and out of the way, but kind of a pain to read.


  1. Great Quote, by the way: Rob.
    "Rarely is closer to always than it is to never. Always plan for the rare things." - me


---------- Post added September 19th, 2013 at 04:02 PM ----------

So in your first post, you outlined the number one reason for the manifold: if a reg fails (by far the most common failure in the gas system), you still have access to both tanks. Plain and simple. You went on to say 'if you planned your dive right, you should have enough gas to get home'. Something to that affect. The truth of the matter is that failures of generally any type are often accompanied with reduced vis and/or delays. You need that extra gas, and the manifold provides access to that gas.

This is a good point (for the use of a manifold) and I will give it more consideration, (the kind of reply I was hoping for, the point of my OP is to learn from others experiences) Thanks

---------- Post added September 19th, 2013 at 04:26 PM ----------

 
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Akimbo, I can tell you that I'm very reluctant to ask for extra help or different procedures, especially while diving...

We can cure that on the Freedom! I come from commercial diving where the tender's job is to aggressively assist the diver. You shouldn't have to ask, assistance should happen seamlessly unless you make it clear that you don't want any. That is the mentality (and skills) we hope to impart on the crew. There are ways to assist without being overbearing or condescending. You will never prefer dressing solo again after a professional tender puts your gloves on for you!
 
I am really terrible about asking for help, although I do know people who are worse. I, at least was able to ask for help when I was in OTS and needed help from others.
 
Not everyone wearing doubles is cave diving or penetrating a wreck. Thirds is not always the answer.

I dive a longhose/bungied B/U with ID's. The hose configuration is exactly the same as MD's except I have one more SPG on the right post. As to clutter, to even things out the MD diver has an extra valve to contend with.

The free flow example is interesting. If I have one, I close the valve and if it won't resolve I move to end the dive (or at least move upwards). I still have enough gas in the second tank to surface if I plan correctly. If someone with an isolation valve has a free flow (requiring a post shut down) do they continue the dive as if nothing has happened or also move to abort? In either configuration, the diver should have enough gas to surface.

There is no argument that MD's allow the most usable gas. It's true; but there are situations where maximum usable gas is not the greatest motivator. I often hear MD divers here say that, worst case scenario, their teammate is carrying their redundancy. For the solo diver that is not an option. As I said before, I would rather swap true redundancy for max usable gas. That's why I choose ID's. I weight one more than the other. The fact that MD divers must consistently practice valve drills points to the fact that they do not have true redundancy. That is completely based on the actions of the diver, post incident, to bring into effect. If the diver cannot isolate fast enough they will lose all gas. The most I can lose is half.

People keep saying BM ID users can't reach their valves. Why? Can't MD divers reach their posts? The only difference is that my reserve gas is not dependent on reaching the valves. It is an option, not a necessity.

---------- Post added September 19th, 2013 at 07:23 PM ----------

Case Study

Gabe, I can't help you there (but I'd like to see that boat) as that diving is beyond my training. But I would assume (you can tell me if I'm wrong) that on the bottom you can either switch to one of your stages if you had to OR you have a teammates BG you could switch to. In that case, a state of true redundancy does exist and MD's would seem to be the best option. Would you do that dive solo though with all your breathable bottom gas in MD's without recourse to any other bailout gas?

Here's a more likely scenario that I usually face which illustrates why I choose what I choose (and why I now am leaning more towards SM). As you can see, max usable gas is not the issue as much as dependable bailout is:

I am solo diving a remote setting at a site where there is no information regarding conditions. However, if history dictates, I anticipate the water is cold, low vis and there is an unknown entanglement potential. I plan a max depth cap/RB volume and want redundancy with more gas than a single/pony combo will afford. I am also probably shooting video. My choices come down to two small steel cylinders because they won't kill me getting in and out of the water (I'm alone if I fall and can't get up) and I need to wear less lead yet can achieve neutral buoyancy at the beginning of the dive. I can either use a manifold or dive them independently. The manifold offers me nothing, because I don't need to use all available gas, and the manifold requires a step, post incident, to achieve true redundancy. Independent tanks offer me all the gas I need and two completely separate gas systems.

My potential to survive human error is also better with ID's. I can miss my turn pressure and the worst that will happen is I will breath down one tank. I will still have a backup to switch to, surface and slap myself silly with. I can also fail (for whatever reason) to shut down the offending valve and still have enough gas to exit (only losing half gas). With MD's I could, potentially, breath right through my turn pressure to the point I do not have enough gas for exit or fail to isolate quickly or properly. I have thought about this a lot and can say that, for myself, human error is a far more likely failure I will have to contend with than equipment failure. My choice highly anticipates and attempts to address human error while solo diving.
 
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You have apparently run into one of those phony "top ten" web sites in which someone makes a list based on absolutely nothing statistical.

Can you tell me by what objective measure you made this statement?

I have read from more than one source on “diving statistics” (not “phony”top 10 lists) that statistically cave diving fatalities “as a percentage” are around 10 times higher than all other types of scuba diving. And statistically it is second only to base jumping. Whether or not this is accurate is probably hard for anyone to prove. That being said, I have done some more reading on this subject and have found that currently fatalities amongst “certified cave divers” are actually very low.
So I now understand why many people were upset with my “fatalities” comment in the OP. I should have left it out, and just said that cave diving is not for me.
I wanted to hear what the pro manifold argument would be outside of the cave diving community. It seems to me that a lot of cave diving techniques are being championed as the “best” or “the right” way of doing things in many other types of scuba diving, and I don’t think that’s necessarily true.
 
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http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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