double tank equipment

[AfterDark]

US corporations spend an estimated 140+ *Billion dollars* annually on training. No doubt some of these folks could skip the training, read a book, and learn from a mentor. Many can not. Corporate America knows this, so they spend the $$.

Can anyone here predict if the original poster in this thread will be effectively educated via books, and the internet, or is he one that needs a more formal setting? If so I'd love to know how you made that determination based on a few words in a single post.

Tobin

Iget your point it's just weak IMO that's all. How can anyone here predict if the original poster in this thread will be effectively educated via books? I guess the same way you proclaimed a poster untrained or inadequate to dive doubles with a single post with a one mistake about filling the set. Knowledge I leave to the air monkey. I've been diving all my life, never filled a tank once.

IMO the OP should read all he/she can about manifold doubles and then find someone that dives them to explain what he/she does not understand or has questions about. Make shallow orientations dives until the use and configuration is the way he/she wants it. I have no idea if my configuration and use is in accordance with standard agency practices nor do I care; decades of safe and uneventful use of doubles by me is good enough for me

 

[cool_hardware52]

If we can say that people should gain competent training before attempting to use new equipment, and that that training may be formal, mentoring or self directed, depending on the subject and the orientation of the learner, then I agree. This makes the main point that there is particular knowledge that needs to be gained, not that there is one particular way to gain it.

For some people/subjects that may simply be reading the directions that come with the equipment, for others it may involve asking other users what their experience has been, for others it may include a practical demonstration, and for others it may include a formal class setting.

I agree, but one does still need the knowledge, and those new to the activity don't know what they don't know. That's the primary limitation of self study. Sure you can find some answers, but do you have all the answers you may need? How would you know without an outside source? The strength of formal education is standards and a syllabus. I'm not suggesting formal training is always the answer, always required and always superior, but there are differences between self study and a course. I see club based doubles "clinics" a great idea.

I would have prefered to hear more from the OP about their prior diving experience to be able to gauge where they might have stood within the spectrum.

Me too, but I will comment that OP was in another thread seeking advice on how to tie a knot in bungee........


Tobin

 

[FinnMom]

I seriously, seriously doubt the original poster is still with us in this thread.

If I am correct, I applaud his judgement ;-)
I'm out too now. Goodnight and remember to try to play nicely with the other kids.

 

[DaleC]

I agree, but one does still need the knowledge, and those new to the activity don't know what they don't know. That's the primary limitation of self study. Sure you can find some answers, but do you have all the answers you may need? How would you know without an outside source? The strength of formal education is standards and a syllabus. I'm not suggesting formal training is always the answer, always required and always superior, but there are differences between self study and a course. I see club based doubles "clinics" a great idea.

I agree with most of that but am not so warm and fuzzy about formal training. I have taken too many course in and out of scuba conducted by trainers who had no real understanding of the subject. And I said some, not all. It takes having a bad one to really appreciate a good teacher

I am fairly mechanically inclined and pretty good at troubleshooting systems so the doubles thing wasn't too hard. Even when I didn't have direct experience I could look at things and perceive issues. From there I could ask questions to clarify. I even remember asking about twin SPG's because I could see that, when isolated, you would dive the right tank blind. I also spent a lot of time on the DIR sub forum back then, asking all sorts of questions and digging to find the rationale behind the answers.

OTOH, I took a formal class for Nitrox and do not regret it. I suck at math and physics and self learning in that area is exactly where I would screw myself up. The whole course challenged me to think and taught me new stuff so I felt good about it.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Iget your point it's just weak IMO that's all. How can anyone here predict if the original poster in this thread will be effectively educated via books? I guess the same way you proclaimed a poster untrained or inadequate to dive doubles with a single post with a one mistake about filling the set.

Ah, no, not one mistake, an entire series of posts revealing his total lack of understanding of issue combined with a near total lack of willingness to learn.

Knowledge I leave to the air monkey. I've been diving all my life, never filled a tank once.

If you ever choose to dive doubles, I'd recommend you learn how the manifold should be configured for a fill, and verify it was in that condition during the fill. I've encountered *many* fill monkey's that are completely clueless. I've had to duck tape my Iso valve open and mark it to keep the "helpful" folks at the local big box / sporting goods / scuba shop from screwing up.

This is of particular importance if you are PP Blending nitrox or Trimix and getting "Air Tops" at the LDS. This is what kills people. When you return to pick up your tanks and the Iso is cranked tightly shut how do you know when in the process it was shut? Or worse when you open it and hear a "whosh" I've experienced both.

I of course always analyze my tanks before use. If I didn't fill them myself I analyze *both* posts too.

I'll add that Nitrox get becomes quite attractive to new doubles divers doing looong relatively shallow dives while they master their new doubles. New diver, new doubles diver, new nitrox diver, new garage blender seeking air tops is a lot of "New"

IMO the OP should read all he/she can about manifold doubles and then find someone that dives them to explain what he/she does not understand or has questions about. Make shallow orientations dives until the use and configuration is the way he/she wants it. I have no idea if my configuration and use is in accordance with standard agency practices nor do I care; decades of safe and uneventful use of doubles by me is good enough for me

How exactly does that differ from what I advocated? Can you direct me to my post where I suggested they needed a shiny new C card before they used doubles?

Tobin

 

[AfterDark]

Like several others who pop in and out of this thread, you are missing the context of the whole discussion.

We didn't need a mountain of evidence to show that everyone needs to take formal training to dive doubles. All we needed was evidence that the original poster had sufficient knowledge deficit and therefore the original poster would benefit from a competent training in order to learn to dive doubles safely. All one needs to do is read the very first post to find that evidence.

The rest of this is people interpreting and misinterpreting the original discussion or even flat out, not bothering to familiarize themselves with topic before they start sharing their *wisdom*.

---------- Post added June 21st, 2015 at 10:13 AM ----------

Out of curiosity, for those who are having an allergic reaction to the suggestion that the original poster should get competent training to embark on doubles diving, if a newish diver wanted to start diving 32% to 100ft/30m or start diving a drysuit, posted a question in scubaboard, would you have had the same allergic reaction if someone replied by answering the question but also recommended competent training?

I suppose the best response is to relate my own experience and formal training and/or lack of it. I don't expect you to agree and that's fine we started diving at different times so we see things quite differently that's normal I think. My real world diving experience consists of dry suit, ice diving, deco air only, wreck diving including penetrations and of course and probably before all that was doubles. This was during the time 2 fledging training agencies were just getting started PADI and NAUI the agency that I was trained by NASDS was on it's way to becoming SSI sometime in the future.

Ok now read this very carefully all that "tech" diving I described to you was done before there was formal training for it. PADI and NAUI had OW and AOW that's it.

Tech diving was an unknown term it was consider advanced diving but beyond any formal training. You either had others that knew what they were doing to "show you the ropes" or you paid your money and took your chances. I did a little of both and dove those dives for decades with what is considered today to be OW cert it was however much more than that and served as the foundation of my training for a long time. Could we have come out of those classes and dived nitrxo? Yes the knowledge needed was taught even though nitrox was not yet in use! Gas laws, PP O2 tox, etc..... was part of the "OW" I took, there was plenty of time it was 12 weeks long!

I wouldn't advise anyone these days not to get training for these types of dives. IMO they are complex and dangerous enough to warrant formal training; there is a lot too learn and an objective instructor is good to have. IMO doubles just do not fall under that "complex and dangerous enough" criteria. You and others think so fine with me, but in this case to suggest it is the only safe way is just wrong.

Formal training may be just what the OP needs but the OP won't know until he has at least read about the subject and has worked with a doubles set out of the water for a time to become familiar with it. If after that the OP isn't confident or has unanswered questions than hey that's what formal training is for isn't it.

I don't believe formal training always makes competent instruction a sure thing. I can think of one instructor right here in RI that is anything but competent IMO but she is cheap!

 

[cool_hardware52]

I wouldn't advise anyone these days not to get training for these types of dives. IMO they are complex and dangerous enough to warrant formal training; there is a lot too learn and an objective instructor is good to have. IMO doubles just do not fall under that "complex and dangerous enough" criteria. You and others think so fine with me, but in this case to suggest it is the only safe way is just wrong.

Who here suggested that formal training is the only safe way?

Why do you keep repeating this canard?

Tobin

 

[AfterDark]

Who here suggested that formal training is the only safe way?

Why do you keep repeating this canard?

Tobin

Not in so many words; however in post 7 you ask Storker Why do you encourage irresponsible behavior?

Tobin

Jcaplin asks: What irresponsible behavior is being encouraged?
And you reply”

Using doubles without training…..
Tobin

What do you want me to think?

 

[cool_hardware52]

I've been painted, wrongly, as a proponent of formal, paid training. The reality is quite different. My dad taught himself to dive at a time when there were no training agencies. One could simply buy gear at Alta Sport in San Gabriel California and go diving. Tanks were often doubled fire extinguisher bottles, doubled up. Fills were problematic, one needed to know somebody with a Compressor. Fortunately he was a general contractor with friends in the mechanical trades that could piece together a ~1800 psi compressor. He never had any formal training, there wasn't any. He taught me to dive when I was 10-11 years old. We dove together that way for 3-4 years. Eventually dad had trouble getting fills, no C card and his solution was to send me to the local YMCA to get trained. I did. IIRC they offered a single course, and it was fairly demanding. Boot camp kinda vibe. I survived dad's training and the Y course.

Much latter I got involved in "Tech Diving". Lots of courses. I've had the benefit of first rate instructors. Hugely thankful I did. It puts me in the unique position to see both approaches first hand. Both have merits and both have downsides, neither is perfect. Additionally I often develop products (some of which prove useful and make it to market, many others do not) I test these obviously without benefit of 'formal' instruction, but I'm pretty good at recognizing the risks I'm taking. Education takes many forms, the spectrum is wide, but the fact remains newbies need info, *even* when they don't know it. "Competent training" is a huge shortcut to safer diving, and more enjoyable diving. We are fortunate to live in an era where a bit of research and few interviews will often lead to a source / provider that can make acquiring new skills relatively quick.

I like Adobo's use of the "allergy" analogy. I admit I just don't get the reflexive negative reaction to *any* suggestion people seek help on the path to scuba nirvana.

Tobin

 

[AfterDark]

I've been painted, wrongly, as a proponent of formal, paid training. The reality is quite different. My dad taught himself to dive at a time when there were no training agencies. One could simply buy gear at Alta Sport in San Gabriel California and go diving. Tanks were often doubled fire extinguisher bottles, doubled up. Fills were problematic, one needed to know somebody with a Compressor. Fortunately he was a general contractor with friends in the mechanical trades that could piece together a ~1800 psi compressor. He never had any formal training, there wasn't any. He taught me to dive when I was 10-11 years old. We dove together that way for 3-4 years. Eventually dad had trouble getting fills, no C card and his solution was to send me to the local YMCA to get trained. I did. IIRC they offered a single course, and it was fairly demanding. Boot camp kinda vibe. I survived dad's training and the Y course.

Much latter I got involved in "Tech Diving". Lots of courses. I've had the benefit of first rate instructors. Hugely thankful I did. It puts me in the unique position to see both approaches first hand. Both have merits and both have downsides, neither is perfect. Additionally I often develop products (some of which prove useful and make it to market, many others do not) I test these obviously without benefit of 'formal' instruction, but I'm pretty good at recognizing the risks I'm taking. Education takes many forms, the spectrum is wide, but the fact remains newbies need info, *even* when they don't know it. "Competent training" is a huge shortcut to safer diving, and more enjoyable diving. We are fortunate to live in an era where a bit of research and few interviews will often lead to a source / provider that can make acquiring new skills relatively quick.

I like Adobo's use of the "allergy" analogy. I admit I just don't get the reflexive negative reaction to *any* suggestion people seek help on the path to scuba nirvana.

Tobin

Really, I was joking about any ownership on your part in classes! I really was, where is your sense of humor man?!?
are you one of the brothers Grimm or something? Joking again, Geez!

For the record that joke was in the form of a question, it didn't become an accusation until you made it one.