Don't understand the ban on shooting some fish species

[sea_ledford]

This is why Red Snapper are so limited in take currently

There are tons of little ones, and very few big ones. If the season is opened up, all the biggest little ones (those legal 2-4 year olds) will be taken and the stock will collapse (again).

We do vertical long lining (VLL) for snapper sampling now, I don't know if NOAA is still doing traps or not. VLL is the SEAMAP protocol from NOAA though, and we've been doing it that way for about 8 years now. Probably 90% of what we catch is in that 2-4 year old size range, we've caught a few big ones, but those are still in the 6-10 year old size range. The biggest Red Snapper I have ever seen was probably about 25 lbs. I've seen one that size in hundreds of sampling dives and VLL collections.

The reason the big fish are so important is the older a female is the more fecund she is. One 15 year old fish is worth hundreds of 3 year olds from a reproductive standpoint. I think there should be a slot limit on all fish.

As for fishing gear limits, that is almost all political, unfortunately. My favorite example is the Bluefin Tuna fishery. Not sure what the status is now, but several years ago it was on the verge of collapse. The commercial interests had a lot of political power, so for a "win" in the environmental category, they made a big deal about limiting the gear that could be used to take Blue Fin. Hooray the giant tuna are saved from commercial over-fishing! Except the gear they limited was spear fishing. So the half dozen people in the world that had the skill, gear, and guts to spear a 600+ lb sea monster could no longer do that, but the commercial fishers were left untouched.

There are a few well managed fisheries in the world. I want to say that the Alaska Pollock fishery is one of them (don't quote me on that though). That is a HUGE industry, so it can be done.

-Chris

 

[Steve_C]

My impression was that the north Atlantic cod had rebounded some but that is all hearsay.

The small subsistance farmer uses up a lot of space. The efficient way to do this is to put people into little boxes, not allow them to travel and use resources.

Actually trying to police each other's use is a rat hole. Rather we each earn resource credits (called cash) that we may spend as we wish. Who is to say that somebody flying to visit their brother or go to a park is making any better choice than for me to go to the coast and dive. We are each using our resource credits to maximize our life satisfaction.

 

[Wookie]

My impression was that the north Atlantic cod had rebounded some but that is all hearsay.

No. Still no decent size fish (as Chris alluded to with Red Snapper) and very few overall, certainly not enough to make a trawl worthwhile.

As an aside, I fished the last season of cod where you could make any money. 1980/1981. I chose to go in the navy instead of continuing my life as a commercial fisherman. That year my uncle rigged his boat for purse seining for pogey and herring. That kept him going for another 8 years. They are now mostly gone too. When I started in 1976/7, we gill netted, long lined, and rock hopper trawled. We killed species one by one. As was stated above, Lobster are doing fine, and are regulated by the fishermen themselves rather than the government. Dogfish are likely OK, but I'm not sure anyone is sure about that. We used to throw them away when I was fishing. Now, it's probably in your fish and chips.

 

[Steve_C]

Not sure folks all know how much is killed in bycatch. I used to do some small boat fishing off the coast of NC. I can remember days when you would see some shrimp trawlers working. You could find the ocean surface littered with numerous dead spots, croakers, and whatever else was caught and the dead fish stretched for miles and miles.

 

[waynel]

The scientific methods for counting red snapper (I have performed this research) are outdated and inadequate. Problem is, there is 20 years of poor data. If you come up with a new method for determining the population of a fish, you throw all that came before it away. That's millions and millions of bad research down the drain, so instead, we keep collecting more bad data.

Specifically, red snapper are counted by trapping them. Problem with trapping them is that the traps are on the bottom (for 40-50 minutes) and the red snapper are distributed throughout the water column. Second problem is that no matter how many sow red snapper are in the vicinity of the trap, only one (and rarely 2) will get in the trap together, so the trap may have a hundred snapper looking in at the menhaden bait (Menhaden is the only bait used), only one is gorging itself.

Now, many little reds will enter the trap with the sow, so the scientist sees (when the trap is hauled) one "keeper" and a ton of fingerling. What does that tell you? I'll tell you what it tells you, it tells you that there are a bunch of young snapper out there, but very few big snapper.

Now, I'm just a dumb research boat captain, I would never tell the NMFS scientists that their methods are wrong, right? Well, lets just say that after that one trapping trip, I wasn't asked to do any more. Especially after seeing a ton of dead and dying snapper thrown back, and poor scientific methods, and general mayhem on the deck, I couldn't keep my mouth shut (Shocking, I know). Ask any charter fisherman how the snapper are doing, they will tell you they are flourishing.

But a scientist told me that Red Snapper are functionally extinct in the Atlantic.

Outstanding reply Wookie. You are dead right. Not to start a political fight, but my wife (deceased) taught school for 30 years. With all the "No Child Left Behind", etc. programs, the government NEVER consulted the teachers. Same thing here. Scientists with traps. My God. They need to come dive with us on these rigs. Actually GET in the environment of Red Snappers. Here's what they don't see and we do. A five pound snapper (actually thousands of them) are feeding on the small Mangrove Groupers (that's the fish we also love to cook). I have been at a 30 ft. safety stop and watched these big Snappers come screaming up from 60 ft. and devour a school of small Groupers. Grouper is actually our favorite fish to eat out of the Gulf. Know what? We are seeing fewer and fewer. Just like our levee system in coastal Louisiana. Destroying wetlands with dredging (destroying fisheries). Our commercial fishermen are livid. Same with us dive hunters. Scientists learn what's going on in school. We learn by spending our whole lives in the environment in which we hunt. Thanks Wookie. You nailed it.

 

[waynel]

Learn to cook lionfish They'll never be banned.

Have killed it and cooked it. Love it. Belize and Florida Keys are really working hard to get folks to order it when dining out. Now, if the federal government would declared Lionfish an "endangered species" people would line up at restaurants to eat it.

 

[waynel]

Not sure folks all know how much is killed in bycatch. I used to do some small boat fishing off the coast of NC. I can remember days when you would see some shrimp trawlers working. You could find the ocean surface littered with numerous dead spots, croakers, and whatever else was caught and the dead fish stretched for miles and miles.

That's what the government should be doing. Monitoring commercial fishing closely instead of waiting for me to surface and ask for my special permit to shoot Amberjack. Of course, we underwater hunters don't have a million dollar lobbying firm paying the government to look the other way.

 

[fmerkel]

This will only take a few minutes of your time. The Smithsonian is generally a reliable source.
The Ocean is Running Out of Fish

 

[waynel]

I dive in a couple of the Marine Protected Areas in California and can attest to their success. These reefs were depleted of many species ten years ago and are now beginning to thrive. Some of the reefs outside the MPA border have some overspilll but are still quite desolate compared to the protected reef nearby. I believe it is in the fishermen's best interest to close some fisheries so that they don't go the way of the sardine industry in Central California.
BTW, I'm not really a tree hugger but I also don't eat seafood.

Your'e right Cannery Row vanished because sardines where fished out. But that happened back when there really was no firm regulation on commercial fishing (does the word "Buffalo" come to mind). Not that the government is really doing more to monitor commercial fishing today. I hunt at 130 ft. underwater and from a 10 ft. tree stand. I only kill what is legal and I always eat what I kill. And to be quite honest DWF does an excellent job with game hunting. Because they live and operate in the environment (on land). My whole point is that the scientists aren't getting into the environment (underwater) to study what's really happened. BTW, I'm not a tree hugger either, but I donate one week of my summer every year to help the Coral Reef Restoration project in the Florida Keys as a volunteer diver. Anyone with an AOW is encouraged to apply.

 

[waynel]

This will only take a few minutes of your time. The Smithsonian is generally a reliable source.
The Ocean is Running Out of Fish

Absolutely we are running out of fish. Unchecked commercial fishing, blowing up the mangrove forests on the shoreline (fisheries, were big fish spawn little fish), like in Belize, to build resort hotels. I've spent hours in Belize (Ambergris Caye) visiting with Billy (doesn't want his last name used) talking about how he's spent ten years fighting that. I no longer dive Belize. The reefs are bleached white. No fish, except for nurse sharks. And the only thing the dive ops there have to offer is a "shark feeding" spectacle in Shark Ray Alley, where, yes, they feed the sharks and rays and every diver gets to pet, stroke, ride, etc. the nurse sharks and rays. No reefs? No mangroves? No fish. BTW, Jacques Cousteau is heaven weeping. He is the one who turned us on us to diving and discovered Belize as a diver's paradise.