Randy43068
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Don't move the upline!
- Thread starter TSandM
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Rainer
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dumpsterDiver
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I always like your posts and I don’t want to sound too critical but, DAMN. You profess to be DIR and use all the team stuff and then you guys completely fail to plan a very significant portion of the dive plan which was entirely foreseeable. You could have conceivably really endangered the other divers. You seem to fail to acknowledge this failure to make appropriate pre-dive plans because you make reference to writing “wet notes” underwater at the end of the dive and seem to imply that you could have stopped Peter from moving the hook. This should all have been worked out well before anyone hit the water.
Of course before I go too far on a rant, my buddies did the same thing to me when diving on a 200 ft deep wreck, 100 miles from shore. We were all pretty much solo spearfishing, and when I came back to where the hook should be, I couldn’t find it and was pretty confused since the vis was 70 feet, but the narcosis on air was also a factor. I had accrued some deco and the only person on the boat was sleeping when we descended, so I was not too happy about a drifting deco and ascent… Anyway, as I stood on the wreck scratching my head and delaying my ascent I somehow heard a tiny little scream. I looked out (down current) and could just make out my “two buddies” drifting off the wreck with the grappling hook just at the limit of visibility. They had pulled it because they assumed I had already ascended. If I had showed up 10 seconds later, I never would have seen them. All three of us made an uneventful ascent, but we also held a long overdue discussion about how we are going to handle pulling the hook later on. We also should have known better.
What good is all the DIR stuff, if you fail to make extremely basic dive plans? For a very shallow dive like 70 feet, my first option would be to have a divemaster or crew descend down the line and pull the hook after everyone else has safely been on the boat. If you are on a private boat with no designated crew, then somebody should have been designated to go down (and oh my God, solo even) and pull the stupid thing. Doing a bounce to 70 feet is not that big of a deal if you plan to do a slow ascent and deco out properly. Of course you could designate teams, allocate responsibilities, contingency plans and supplement this with the placement of colored lights and other ornaments on the anchor rode to designate the status of various groups or individuals, but I’m not sure what colors would be DIR.
Of course before I go too far on a rant, my buddies did the same thing to me when diving on a 200 ft deep wreck, 100 miles from shore. We were all pretty much solo spearfishing, and when I came back to where the hook should be, I couldn’t find it and was pretty confused since the vis was 70 feet, but the narcosis on air was also a factor. I had accrued some deco and the only person on the boat was sleeping when we descended, so I was not too happy about a drifting deco and ascent… Anyway, as I stood on the wreck scratching my head and delaying my ascent I somehow heard a tiny little scream. I looked out (down current) and could just make out my “two buddies” drifting off the wreck with the grappling hook just at the limit of visibility. They had pulled it because they assumed I had already ascended. If I had showed up 10 seconds later, I never would have seen them. All three of us made an uneventful ascent, but we also held a long overdue discussion about how we are going to handle pulling the hook later on. We also should have known better.
What good is all the DIR stuff, if you fail to make extremely basic dive plans? For a very shallow dive like 70 feet, my first option would be to have a divemaster or crew descend down the line and pull the hook after everyone else has safely been on the boat. If you are on a private boat with no designated crew, then somebody should have been designated to go down (and oh my God, solo even) and pull the stupid thing. Doing a bounce to 70 feet is not that big of a deal if you plan to do a slow ascent and deco out properly. Of course you could designate teams, allocate responsibilities, contingency plans and supplement this with the placement of colored lights and other ornaments on the anchor rode to designate the status of various groups or individuals, but I’m not sure what colors would be DIR.
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:11:
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the experience factor will get you everytime when dealing with logistics of boats. (I am finding a lot of snags now that I am responsible for a boat..sometimes live drops, sometimes not...all conditions dependent) Anticipating "issues" opens a whole new can of worms. That is why I was curious about the captain. Most captains would defer to "opinionated Divers" about moving an up line, but tend to overrun divers if given a vacume. (I notice)
I was a bit unclear about who was communicating with "who" and when. I like situations where the correct person feels strong enough to take charge, and that is a problem sometimes when it is me. If I am SURE, I take it on. When unsure, It usually gets determined by a stronger personality, and that is when things happen. It is certainly my biggest challenge of having a boat. Driving to the site is the easy part, group decisions are tough. It is a group effort and there is no way around it.
I often face situations where commercial captains request that I bounce to get a bouy (or unhook one) And I have had to get assertive on that and designate somebody else to do the second one.
The good news is that these situations are educational, and you don't forget the morsels of improved method that come out of them...
My personal method is that we blow our SMB at the last 25% of the dive and that covers a lot of uncertainty. It is very easy to have your SMB up on a 60 ft dive. (Because of doing many solos, I often dive the whole dive dragging my SMB, when surface conditions are rough) Often we charge the last person returning with unhooking, but sometimes you are not SURE if everyone is up, which is where the marker blow towards the end serves us. (People make fun of me blowing my SMB all the time and on Maui I had a DM request I not...) I see the potential problem if everyone does but one per seperated group should be the practic, IMO...even for boat traffic and that last safety stop. Each dive group should be marked once above 30 ft or so, is my own way.--or anytime there is an issue regarding where another party might be. You might view it as an extension to the "dive to be found" philosophy.
Even if moving the upline is determined to be wrong....chances are you will encounter the issue again with a different group of players, so it makes more sense to have a diver solution to the "what if".
.............................
the experience factor will get you everytime when dealing with logistics of boats. (I am finding a lot of snags now that I am responsible for a boat..sometimes live drops, sometimes not...all conditions dependent) Anticipating "issues" opens a whole new can of worms. That is why I was curious about the captain. Most captains would defer to "opinionated Divers" about moving an up line, but tend to overrun divers if given a vacume. (I notice)
I was a bit unclear about who was communicating with "who" and when. I like situations where the correct person feels strong enough to take charge, and that is a problem sometimes when it is me. If I am SURE, I take it on. When unsure, It usually gets determined by a stronger personality, and that is when things happen. It is certainly my biggest challenge of having a boat. Driving to the site is the easy part, group decisions are tough. It is a group effort and there is no way around it.
I often face situations where commercial captains request that I bounce to get a bouy (or unhook one) And I have had to get assertive on that and designate somebody else to do the second one.
The good news is that these situations are educational, and you don't forget the morsels of improved method that come out of them...
My personal method is that we blow our SMB at the last 25% of the dive and that covers a lot of uncertainty. It is very easy to have your SMB up on a 60 ft dive. (Because of doing many solos, I often dive the whole dive dragging my SMB, when surface conditions are rough) Often we charge the last person returning with unhooking, but sometimes you are not SURE if everyone is up, which is where the marker blow towards the end serves us. (People make fun of me blowing my SMB all the time and on Maui I had a DM request I not...) I see the potential problem if everyone does but one per seperated group should be the practic, IMO...even for boat traffic and that last safety stop. Each dive group should be marked once above 30 ft or so, is my own way.--or anytime there is an issue regarding where another party might be. You might view it as an extension to the "dive to be found" philosophy.
Even if moving the upline is determined to be wrong....chances are you will encounter the issue again with a different group of players, so it makes more sense to have a diver solution to the "what if".
Gilldiver
Contributor
OK, Northeast dive time.
This situation is very common on the small boats up here where we have limited vis and mix team and solo diving. If the boat has a mate, it is his job to pull the hook. If we are diving without a mate each team and solo diver has a gate clip, bolt snap, or something else to clip on the line.
Prior to anyone going into the water all agree that the last team or solo diver down will pull the hook.
When each team/solo diver gets to the bottom they snap on their clip or object on a ring attached to the chain to anchor/grapnel shackle. If you get back to the hook and there is only one clip or object left it is your job to pull the hook.
When you pull the hook, you put a tine of the grapnel through the same ring your clip was on to foul the hook and keep it from re-hooking on the wreck or any rocks, lost lobster trawls, lines, etc.
I have been know to hit the water with a wreck bag and a camera. If I find the vis good for photos, the bag is clipped off, if the vis is poor, the camera gets clipped off. If you get back to the hook and a camera or wreck bag is still clipped off, Im still down around somewhere.
Once you set it up it all works very easy.
Pete
This situation is very common on the small boats up here where we have limited vis and mix team and solo diving. If the boat has a mate, it is his job to pull the hook. If we are diving without a mate each team and solo diver has a gate clip, bolt snap, or something else to clip on the line.
Prior to anyone going into the water all agree that the last team or solo diver down will pull the hook.
When each team/solo diver gets to the bottom they snap on their clip or object on a ring attached to the chain to anchor/grapnel shackle. If you get back to the hook and there is only one clip or object left it is your job to pull the hook.
When you pull the hook, you put a tine of the grapnel through the same ring your clip was on to foul the hook and keep it from re-hooking on the wreck or any rocks, lost lobster trawls, lines, etc.
I have been know to hit the water with a wreck bag and a camera. If I find the vis good for photos, the bag is clipped off, if the vis is poor, the camera gets clipped off. If you get back to the hook and a camera or wreck bag is still clipped off, Im still down around somewhere.
Once you set it up it all works very easy.
Pete
No reason to untie until everyone is back on the boat. First group down loops the grapnel as others have said above. Then tie the line to the wreck with a loop of sisal. Then attach a lift bag to the grapnel, and partially inflate.
When all divers are back on board - confirmed with a roll call - grab the line, tie it to a cleat, and give the engines a little throttle. Sisal snaps, and a few seconds later the anchor is at the surface.
We do this frequently in NJ with a 50' dive boat attached!
The times we don't do it that way, a mate goes down to untie after everyone is back on board.
All that said, I always bring my strobe with me and clip it off on the chain above the tie in. It has a mini-slate on it that says "I'M STILL DOWN HERE - RJP."
When all divers are back on board - confirmed with a roll call - grab the line, tie it to a cleat, and give the engines a little throttle. Sisal snaps, and a few seconds later the anchor is at the surface.
We do this frequently in NJ with a 50' dive boat attached!
The times we don't do it that way, a mate goes down to untie after everyone is back on board.
All that said, I always bring my strobe with me and clip it off on the chain above the tie in. It has a mini-slate on it that says "I'M STILL DOWN HERE - RJP."
This was a screwup on my part, no doubt about it. So please, don't blame the "DIR" crowd for not having thought this through. It wasn't. I really do think even hardcore "DIR" divers make mistakes some times. That's why they train and try to think through different scenarios.
So, what were the mistakes here?
The first one was the captain's. He believed he had dropped the hook off the wreck ("I always drop it off the wreck but you might have to move it a couple of feet to clear something"). That was what was in my mind when I came upon the hook and saw that it had been pulled underneath part of the structure.
The second mistake was ours -- all of us. This should have been discussed and thought through -- it wasn't as already described.
The third mistake was mine. I remembered the Captain asking (several times) that we free the hook before we come up. After seeing that it was "hooked" I should have done nothing -- except perhaps of putting my SMB on the line to make it easier to see (and easier to move) later. This is something I will not forget (I hope!).
The fourth mistake was the team leader's in allowing me to move it at that time AND/OR having me move it to where I did. Rather than just freeing it, I was directed to move it off the wreck and onto the bottom. Had I just freed it (and perhaps moved it a few feet but still have it be free) it would have been a "no harm, no foul" situation. But it still would have been on the wreck with the potential for fouling later.
The fifth mistake is one Lynne has already ID'd -- she thought of stopping me but didn't. In the debrief she said she didn't know how to tell me to stop. I really don't think it would have taken wet notes for me to understand: 1] Clenched fist -- hold; 2] Open palm -- stop what I'm doing; 3] Tap side of head -- THINK; 4] Index finger to her -- 1 finger; index finger to Kirk, 2 fingers; index finger to me, 3 fingers; curled index finger and 4 & 5 fingers (divers number 4 & 5). I think (hope?) that would have been the "duh" moment -- gee are Dan and G going to know where the line is if I move it now?
As I said, I think THAT lesson has been learned. Now to work on new mistakes!
(BTW, having had trouble finding the up line a couple of times now, I think I'm going to take a strobe with me and attach it from now on. Even if others don't like it, I think it would be a benefit and since I have a strobe, why not? And a question for those of you who put a strobe on the upline -- do you leave it for the last person or, if you are the one who has put it on the line, do you take it with you when you ascend?)
So, what were the mistakes here?
The first one was the captain's. He believed he had dropped the hook off the wreck ("I always drop it off the wreck but you might have to move it a couple of feet to clear something"). That was what was in my mind when I came upon the hook and saw that it had been pulled underneath part of the structure.
The second mistake was ours -- all of us. This should have been discussed and thought through -- it wasn't as already described.
The third mistake was mine. I remembered the Captain asking (several times) that we free the hook before we come up. After seeing that it was "hooked" I should have done nothing -- except perhaps of putting my SMB on the line to make it easier to see (and easier to move) later. This is something I will not forget (I hope!).
The fourth mistake was the team leader's in allowing me to move it at that time AND/OR having me move it to where I did. Rather than just freeing it, I was directed to move it off the wreck and onto the bottom. Had I just freed it (and perhaps moved it a few feet but still have it be free) it would have been a "no harm, no foul" situation. But it still would have been on the wreck with the potential for fouling later.
The fifth mistake is one Lynne has already ID'd -- she thought of stopping me but didn't. In the debrief she said she didn't know how to tell me to stop. I really don't think it would have taken wet notes for me to understand: 1] Clenched fist -- hold; 2] Open palm -- stop what I'm doing; 3] Tap side of head -- THINK; 4] Index finger to her -- 1 finger; index finger to Kirk, 2 fingers; index finger to me, 3 fingers; curled index finger and 4 & 5 fingers (divers number 4 & 5). I think (hope?) that would have been the "duh" moment -- gee are Dan and G going to know where the line is if I move it now?
As I said, I think THAT lesson has been learned. Now to work on new mistakes!
(BTW, having had trouble finding the up line a couple of times now, I think I'm going to take a strobe with me and attach it from now on. Even if others don't like it, I think it would be a benefit and since I have a strobe, why not? And a question for those of you who put a strobe on the upline -- do you leave it for the last person or, if you are the one who has put it on the line, do you take it with you when you ascend?)
You make valid points about planning the dive, but regardless of agency, as divers we learn from training and experience (and occasionally from reading about someone else's mistakes). I think TSandM is very generous and modest to put her experiences out here so that someone else might avoid the same mistake. I know the first time I wrestled with a grapple, the captain and I had to go over it several times on the boat to be sure that we were all on the same page about what to do.
Rainer
Contributor
We tend to dive moorings and tie into those. If no mooring is on site, someone on the crew will usually put one in. Just the way it's done here in northern MA. I almost always put on a strobe (too many ghost lines on the wrecks). I pull my strobe (one for our team) when we start our ascent. Often each team will drop one strobe. We also tend to run reels, but even when the vis is good enough not to require one, or on wrecks I know really well, we'll still put on a strobe.
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Around here, we share the cost and the labor of putting the bouys in. I know it can be sketchy working with heavy objects and lift bags underwater, but then it becomes a one-time deal.
On the Big Island they have an environmental group that collects funds and coordinates it. maybe you all should start a trend.
Peter, your post made sense to me. I like the NE diver's idea of clipping something off at the bottom of the mooring line, like a carabiner or a strobe. I often encounter divers who have the signaling equipment but then it doesn't occur to us to employ it more.
On the Big Island they have an environmental group that collects funds and coordinates it. maybe you all should start a trend.
Peter, your post made sense to me. I like the NE diver's idea of clipping something off at the bottom of the mooring line, like a carabiner or a strobe. I often encounter divers who have the signaling equipment but then it doesn't occur to us to employ it more.
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