Don't know what happened

[ginti]

well I did say "as I understand it"
So my perception and not a statement

thanks for clarifying

You are right, maybe I was a bit aggressive. Sorry for that, peace and love

 

[David Novo]

That is simply false. Never happened to me to find a group of GUE divers where all the people had the same brands. There are many threads about it on SB.

The last time I dived with a GUE buddy, he had different brands for almost any piece of equipment, here's the list:
- regulators me: scubapro; buddy: apeks
- fins me: scubapro; buddy: apeks
- suit me: ursuit; buddy: santi
- lights me: bigblue, halcyon and scubapro for the secondary; buddy: halcyon for all lights
- computer me: garmin; buddy: shearwater
- harness and backplate me: tecline; buddy: halcyon
- hood me: k01; buddy: santi
- wing me: tecline; buddy: halcyon
- drygloves me: teds; buddy: santi (integrated with the suit)
- undergarment me: santi, fourthelement and decathlon; buddy: santi and a random brand on amazon (for the socks)

I have the same experience: I don't think I have 3 pieces of equipment from the same brand.

 

[hedonist222]

You are right, maybe I was a bit aggressive. Sorry for that, peace and love

no, you really weren't aggressive at all

I'm not saying this because you said you might have been aggressive

you really weren't
you were matter-of-fact
think you could carry on like this without thinking you may be a bit aggressive

peace and love indeed

 

[Storker]

It won’t matter whether it’s your first or only time in the year you accept the DM role. If there was an incident you will be held responsible because you hold the qualification.

Isn't there a gray zone here?

I assume that several BSAC branches have members who are DL certified, just as several clubs up here have members who are CMAS*** certified. If that member isn't the club's designated dive leader for the day, but uses their competence and experience to lead a buddy dive (after all one of the two should lead the dive, so why not the highest qualified person?), would that person be held responsible for an accident that they didn't cause? And even if they were the designated dive leader, wouldn't it be necessary to prove negligence or intent before they was charged with, say, manslaughter?

Yes, I know about Stephen Martin's case down in Malta, but I have serious problems imagining that a British, German or Scandinavian court would lay the blame on the "DM" certified buddy unless that person actually was responsible for what happened. At least up here, it's normally necessary to prove negligence or intent before you can be held responsible for an accident or a fatality.

 

[Edward3c]

Isn't there a gray zone here?

I assume that several BSAC branches have members who are DL certified, just as several clubs up here have members who are CMAS*** certified. If that member isn't the club's designated dive leader for the day, but uses their competence and experience to lead a buddy dive (after all one of the two should lead the dive, so why not the highest qualified person?), would that person be held responsible for an accident that they didn't cause? And even if they were the designated dive leader, wouldn't it be necessary to prove negligence or intent before they was charged with, say, manslaughter?

Yes, I know about Stephen Martin's case down in Malta, but I have serious problems imagining that a British, German or Scandinavian court would lay the blame on the "DM" certified buddy unless that person actually was responsible for what happened. At least up here, it's normally necessary to prove negligence or intent before you can be held responsible for an accident or a fatality.

In a BSAC Branch the Diving Officer (DO) authorities the Dive Manager (Dive Leader, Advanced Diver or First Class Diver) for the day/trip. That individual has authority over everyone, including those of higher qualification (including the DO). The leader of a buddy pair is agreed with the Dive Manager before the dive. Nothing wrong with the least experienced being the leader, helps to build their experience and confidence.

You’re mixing criminal and civil offences. In either case it costs money to defend yourself. Hence BSAC’s 3rd Party Liability insurance. It’s not unknown for non-diving relatives to claim compensation under in the Civil Courts.

 

[Storker]

You’re mixing criminal and civil offences. In either case it costs money to defend yourself. Hence BSAC’s 3rd Party Liability insurance. It’s not unknown for non-diving relatives to claim compensation under in the Civil Courts.

I believe that my take on reality is colored by my judicial system, just as your take on reality is colored by your judicial system. Up here, you generally have to prove intent or negligence before you have a case. Even with 50/50 evidence, (for civil cases, unlike criminal cases where "preponderance of evidence" is required), that requires some data.

Perhaps the absence of medical expenses charged to the individual or their relatives changes the picture somewhat. On this side of the pond, we don't need to to sue someone to be able to afford proper care for a hurt family member.

 

[Angelo Farina]

This is OT, but maybe it needs a bit of clarification.

GUE doesn't require jet-fins, just rigid fins (as the freediving fins and other kinds of fins are). Frog-kick is not the standard kick - indeed, there is not a standard kick; if, in any situation, a better propulsion technique is preferred, use it Canister lights are not required, and not even encouraged if a diver does not need them. Trim is not horizontal but adapted to the environment (I say it because there has been an entire thread here on SB about it). Equipment hanging from the harness is forbidden.

People believe that what GUE calls standardization means using the same set of tools for any situation. This is simply not true.

Thanks for correcting me. This is due to the fact that I never followed any GUE-based course, so I talk only by indirect knowledge, which cause misunderstandings.
Said that, my point was that in the long path for becoming a good DM one should face different approaches. So it is very useful to experiment the GUE approach, perhaps with the fundamentals course. But one should also have some experience of other ways of diving, using different approaches and philosophies. As no one is taking care of the DM, for example, I find very useful that one gets proper training for solo diving, for being fully self-reliant.
And, as said, I think that a good DM should also be a good free diver. I would never feel safe bringing other people at a depth from which I am not sure of being able to ascent safely without breathing...

 

[ginti]

Thanks for correcting me. This is due to the fact that I never followed any GUE-based course, so I talk only by indirect knowledge, which cause misunderstandings.
Said that, my point was that in the long path for becoming a good DM one should face different approaches. So it is very useful to experiment the GUE approach, perhaps with the fundamentals course. But one should also have some experience of other ways of diving, using different approaches and philosophies. As no one is taking care of the DM, for example, I find very useful that one gets proper training for solo diving, for being fully self-reliant.
And, as said, I think that a good DM should also be a good free diver. I would never feel safe bringing other people at a depth from which I am not sure of being able to ascent safely without breathing...

Totally agree. I have direct experience with ESA (a very PADI-like agency), FFESSM (a French CMAS associate; I am currently a member of a club) and GUE. Most of my friends come from a variety of backgrounds (including TDI, IANTD, FIPSAS, SSI, PADI and so on). Always good to have wide horizons.

I am not a DM, so my opinions maybe have little value. Anyway, I am against solo-diving (opinion, don't blame me ) but I understand your point. People need to be fully self-reliant if they want to be DM, and even something more (I think that technical training in this sense can overcome the lack of solo-diving training).

I cannot say anything about freediving, because I am not technically trained for it, although I am curious (I can swim 25m underwater, this is everything I can say).

 

[Dody]

I believe that my take on reality is colored by my judicial system, just as your take on reality is colored by your judicial system. Up here, you generally have to prove intent or negligence before you have a case. Even with 50/50 evidence, (for civil cases, unlike criminal cases where "preponderance of evidence" is required), that requires some data.

Perhaps the absence of medical expenses charged to the individual or their relatives changes the picture somewhat. On this side of the pond, we don't need to to sue someone to be able to afford proper care for a hurt family member.

I might be wrong but I think that there is also a cultural aspect involved. In Europe or in Africa, lawsuits are not the usual way of resolving issues. You don’t have lawyers specialized in civil lawsuits and in fact, commercials are forbidden. We don’t systematically sue when we have a car accident. We dismiss right from the start some lawsuits that are common in the US. The notion of emotional distress triggering huge financial payment does not exist. I act as a DM with friends and without charging anyone, I don’t think that I will be liable especially because I did not present myself as a DM and the dive could have been performed without a DM. I will have a moral responsibility and that’s between me and my conscience but not a legal one.
What would matter is the contract. Was there a contract? Was there a financial transaction? Was there a claim or an implied legal responsibility? Cultural differences as I said.

 

[Edward3c]

Perhaps the absence of medical expenses charged to the individual or their relatives changes the picture somewhat. On this side of the pond, we don't need to to sue someone to be able to afford proper care for a hurt family member.

Its not the death of a diver that's expensive, but the aftercare, and education of dependants, when injured. Payouts in the UK are now in the millions; we're following the US it that regard.