Donation of primary or secondary?

[MichaelMc]

Not under water. And how hard is it to shove it under your mask strap when needed? Standards of having it are still met. Nowhere does it say it HAS to be on the mask. But then I've only looked at and have the standards for 9 different agencies in my library. My OW students are told from day one to buy one that's cheap and easy to remove from the mask when you go under the surface.

Hmm. True. The Padi surface drill of alternating between breathing between snorkel and regulator could easily be done as 'remove snorkel from pocket, slip under mask strap, breath snorkel, breath regulator, repeat, slip out from under mask strap, stow back in pocket'. (I only have reference to two sets of standards... )

It does rely on being in the 'snorkel belongs in pocket until needed' camp. For the 'snorkel on mask' camp, the looser necklace seems a fine option if hands free air is not crucial. I was trying to leave the two debates as separate for a short recreational 40" primary hose.

Personally, I prefer a hog loop and primary donate, but I'm not particularly religious about it. Apparently unlike others...

What is meant by being religious? And I'm not sure if you meant me.... If the question is which was is best, I'd say bungee necklace and primary donate. If I, as a more than basic diver, could only rent a octo setup I think I'd still manage to safely enjoy the dive, but I'd worry about where that octo was all the time. And I would likely still donate primary, and respond with a fumble if I went to donate the octo at the same time as the OOA diver. So that's not what I would recommend if the question is which is best.

Edit: Though of two reg sets I've rented recently, one was on octo that I think I might have bungeed it or the main one, and the other was an Air 2, which was well.. primary donate.. but a weird reg for my backup

 

[Bogtrotter]

I came across this article which makes this statement : "The majority of experienced divers agree on using the regulator from the mouth technique if their buddy is without air. But when divers are being trained, they should always learn to offer the alternate air source." Here's the original link- What Are The Rules And Recommendations For Your Alternate Air Source? - DIVE.in

I'm in the primary donation camp but pretty sure I was trained to donate the octo when I did OW 18 yrs ago. We also practiced buddy breathing. What is the standard protocol taught these days in OW- or does it vary depending on agency and instructor?

 

[boulderjohn]

I came across this article which makes this statement : "The majority of experienced divers agree on using the regulator from the mouth technique if their buddy is without air. But when divers are being trained, they should always learn to offer the alternate air source." Here's the original link- What Are The Rules And Recommendations For Your Alternate Air Source? - DIVE.in

I'm in the primary donation camp but pretty sure I was trained to donate the octo when I did OW 18 yrs ago. We also practiced buddy breathing. What is the standard protocol taught these days in OW- or does it vary depending on agency and instructor?

Here is what else that article says: "

A buddy that is new to diving has been trained to take the regulator from your mouth in case theirs fail. If you haven’t been trained the same way you may panic. In this case the situation could end up worse."

I am simply flabbergasted to read that.

 

[Bogtrotter]

I've never heard of that either.

 

[tbone1004]

@MichaelMc
with any sort of long hose setup, when at the surface, the primary should be clipped to the right shoulder d-ring. The suicide strap should be clipped inside of that same bolt snap to keep it secure. Donning the rig can be done easily and then if you have a snorkel, just hold the mask in your left hand, put the necklace around your neck with your right, then put the mask back on your head. I've had to do NAUI leadership drills with snorkels and a suicide strap. It's annoying, but it's not a race since the time limit has been removed in recent years so there is no reason for it to be an issue. At the surface, just take the whole mask off while you pop it on or off.

you say that it adds the step of "make sure the backup air is in place" but shouldn't that be done with a long secondary as well to make sure it isn't dangling?

there is no reason an advanced diver can't dive with a long suicide strap or a beginner to dive with a snug one. We teach ours to be snug from the beginning as there is no advantage to a long one

strangulation hazard is laughable as it is usually made of bungee that stretches and is no worse than any other necklace that someone may wear

in reference to the PADI drill, it's a non-issue to teach and train with snorkels on the mask if you don't have a hog looped primary. We've been at it for 30 years... If you want to stow it, then for that drill you deploy it, stick it under the mask strap, and alternate back and forth, it's not that complicated....

 

[MichaelMc]

@tbone1004, Thanks.

To be clear, I think primary is best. I just have seen necklace/snorkel and ‘stuff around the neck’ as concerns with it from divers. That in fairness should be acknowledged and addressed if we are debating this. Your answers have been better that what I have been able to offer them.

I’ll try clipping the bungee into the primary’s boltsnap when stowed. Thanks. I had not seen that.

Yes, donning with long secondary octo should include checking that it is still secure. Yet forgetting about a long secondary when ditching does not leave the gear still attached to you like a forgotten necklace does. And yes, my ditch and don trials were under the older timed NAUI rules where I was always trying to eliminate steps, such as extra mask remove/replaces.

For underwater remove and replace, such as PADI, when wearing a snorkel, do you remove the mask and do the same? It seems simple enough. Swap primary for secondary, clip primary, remove mask, pull bungee loop over head with reg in, replace mask, proceed with removing rig while breathing off un-necklaced secondary. Or do you possibly thread the necklace over the snorkel if underwater, leaving the mask on but maybe removing the reg if the necklace is snug and strong.

 

[tbone1004]

@MichaelMc
glad to help. clipping the suicide strap into the primary bolt snap is definitely key when donning and doffing the rig to keep things from flopping around.

that skill in and of itself is not really practical though now the NAUI rules no longer require snorkels which is quite nice. For "forgetting" that's what proper self and buddy checks are for and trying to minimize complacency.

For U/W ditch and don with a snorkel I leave my mask on and just pull it over. That's with a fairly snug bungee necklace. With mine you can always pop the secondary out and leave the suicide strap around your neck if you want to, but I don't have any issues getting over. The necklace shouldn't be "strong" in terms of low modulus. It should be snug, but I use pretty thin bungee so it stretches quite easily.

The key is to never rush, always be "slow and relaxed with good technique".

My process is as follows
Primary out
Suicide strap off
Primary back in
undo waist/crotch strap
remove bp/w
button everything up including clipping the suicide strap into the primary bolt snap

 

[Centrals]

Depend on your training.
I was trained to donate my alternative air source when I first started recreational diving(PADI). On my subsequent tec training(IANTD) I was trained to donate my primary(long hose).
I am now diving exclusively BP/W with long hose + alternative under my chin.
YES, I will donate my primary and I will make that clear to any insta-buddy who is not familiar with the procedure., ie go to the one in my mouth and leave the one under my chin alone.

 

[tbone1004]

@Centrals dive in trim and with a proper length suicide strap and they can't see the one under your chin

 

[Centrals]

No it is still obvious to anyone who is care to ask/look for it.
Perhaps not too much so under a Breather massive mouth piece and the double hoses.