Doing it Ridiculous

[Jason B]

He then, ever so helpfully, reached over and shut my air off.


I already mentioned the time an instructor checked my air and turned it off then back on 1/4 turn.

Who are these morons that don't understand the direction you turn a valve to close it? Righty tighty, lefty loosey!

Before anyone is allowed to DM or instruct they should be blind folded and given 10 tanks, some with air on, some with air off, some somewhere in between. Until they can turn every tank 100% on 100% of the time, they fail. This is simple stuff, anyone that washes their hands or takes a bath should be able to do.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I'm advocating that in both situations described above that ditching the weights would have been preferred. Neither could have got that deep without air, unless they were busy trying to turn their air on.
Its wasted precious time in these 2 situations.

Why throw away perfectly good lead when all you need to do is flip on the gas?

I frequently dive 2 hose regulators. Performance is severely diminished wearing the tank high enough to reach the valves. Doing a lot of photography I like to look up without the 1st stage hitting me in the head.

I've never dived a double hose reg. Could you explain that one? Are you vertical in the water and want the reg lower than the mouthpiece? Diving horizontal gives you more position control (for movement in all directions). Of course that puts the mouthpiece below the reg but that's the way that animal works...they work better upside down? I'm also not much of a photographer but I can look any direction I want while wearing my valves where I can reach them.

Wearing the rig that high also makes it likely to get banged/snagged in an overhead environment.

Here, I have to flat out call BS. Cave divers and wreck divers using lines and so forth ALWAYS want to be able to reach their valves. Not only will being able to reach your valve not get you entangled easier but it might help you get yourself un-entangled because it seems like it ALWAYS happens behind you. This is actually another really good reason to make sure that you can reach back there. Lots of lines in caves that you need to swim under and they always seem to be in low spots. Lots of entanglements of all kinds in wrecks, both below and above you. If you catch it right away when something snags your valve it's usually a simple matter to reach back and lift it off.

Also, especially in an overhead environment you should be HORIZONTAL and having the reg where you can reach is not going to get it banged or entangled more easily. On the contrary, diving horizontal, back slightly arched, shoulders back and head up you'll band your head or tanks on the cieling before you hit your valves...but don't do that either. Moving the valves lower on your back increases the chance of getting valves banged and being bumped may roll it off. Again, better make sure you can reach it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Who are these morons that don't understand the direction you turn a valve to close it? Righty tighty, lefty loosey!

Before anyone is allowed to DM or instruct they should be blind folded and given 10 tanks, some with air on, some with air off, some somewhere in between. Until they can turn every tank 100% on 100% of the time, they fail. This is simple stuff, anyone that washes their hands or takes a bath should be able to do.

The instructor is a moron. The guy on the boat in lake Superior isn't but he was pretty busy and had his hands really full at the time. Fortunately being able to reach your valves is cheap insurance against morons and hoest mistakes.

 

[Randy43068]

We WERE talking about a simple rec dive. If you are going to bring overheads into this it's really simple. You have absolutely NO business being in an overhead if you can't reach your own valves...period.

It's also not necessary to have your tank so high that it bangs into your neck/head and still be able to reach the valves. Mine certainly doesn't.

I only had to move my tank up slightly making no difference in performance. Kim, you're right about overhead. If one can't do the drills they should NOT be in that environment. He's broadening the argument because he has NO valid reason one should NOT be able to reach ones valve(s). None!

Hey Mike, you're right about checking spg at surface. I hadn't actually thought about that. Instead of unclipping to check it, I'll reach back to check my valve. No doubt it's the preferred method. Thanks for telling me that.

 

[rmannix]

Why throw away perfectly good lead when all you need to do is flip on the gas?

In the 2 situations we were discussing throwing perfectly good lead away might have saved their lives. In hypothetical situations LIKE THESE 2 (not prepared for descent)
they could also waste time flipping on the gas on an empty tank. If it wasn't already on, how do you KNOW its full?
I'm not in any way saying you SHOULD wear your tanks lower, but there are instances where its unavoidable.[/QUOTE]

I've never dived a double hose reg. Could you explain that one? Are you vertical in the water and want the reg lower than the mouthpiece? Diving horizontal gives you more position control (for movement in all directions). Of course that puts the mouthpiece below the reg but that's the way that animal works...they work better upside down? I'm also not much of a photographer but I can look any direction I want while wearing my valves where I can reach them.

Both stages (or the only stage on a single stage) are attached to the tank valve.
With the mouthpice deeper than the 2nd stage breathing resistance increases, with the mouthpiece shallower it gets easier and can free flow. A good compromise for swimming horizontally is with the unit behind the base of the neck. I've heard some new aqualung Mistrals are being returned with complaints of breathing resistance and the only problem was tank position.

Here, I have to flat out call BS. Cave divers and wreck divers using lines and so forth ALWAYS want to be able to reach their valves. Not only will being able to reach your valve not get you entangled easier but it might help you get yourself un-entangled because it seems like it ALWAYS happens behind you. This is actually another really good reason to make sure that you can reach back there. Lots of lines in caves that you need to swim under and they always seem to be in low spots. Lots of entanglements of all kinds in wrecks, both below and above you. If you catch it right away when something snags your valve it's usually a simple matter to reach back and lift it off.
Also, especially in an overhead environment you should be HORIZONTAL and having the reg where you can reach is not going to get it banged or entangled more easily. On the contrary, diving horizontal, back slightly arched, shoulders back and head up you'll band your head or tanks on the cieling before you hit your valves...but don't do that either. Moving the valves lower on your back increases the chance of getting valves banged and being bumped may roll it off. Again, better make sure you can reach it.

I won't argue cave diving, I'm not qualified and not interested.
In a wreck you don't always have room to be horizontal. I prefer to be angled up slightly. I know where my head is as its part of my body. I can navigate the beams in my attic without bumping my head. If I try it in a top hat I'll probably knock the hat off quickly. If my gear is lower than my head it probably won't get entangled or gradually bump the valve shut to begin with. Just my methods.

While I enjoy solo diving, I'm not about to solo penetrate anything. The best way to get untangled in any situation is to have a buddy do it for you. Attempting to untangle anything behind you by reaching back where you can't see can make it worse.

 

[Kim]

In a wreck you don't always have room to be horizontal. I prefer to be angled up slightly. I know where my head is as its part of my body. I can navigate the beams in my attic without bumping my head. If I try it in a top hat I'll probably knock the hat off quickly. If my gear is lower than my head it probably won't get entangled or gradually bump the valve shut to begin with. Just my methods.

While I enjoy solo diving, I'm not about to solo penetrate anything. The best way to get untangled in any situation is to have a buddy do it for you. Attempting to untangle anything behind you by reaching back where you can't see can make it worse.

May I ask which agency you got overhead training from? You did get training didn't you?

 

[rmannix]

May I ask which agency you got overhead training from? You did get training didn't you?

United States Navy.

 

[Kim]

United States Navy.

And they don't teach you valve drills?

 

[MikeFerrara]

In the 2 situations we were discussing throwing perfectly good lead away might have saved their lives. In hypothetical situations LIKE THESE 2 (not prepared for descent)
they could also waste time flipping on the gas on an empty tank. If it wasn't already on, how do you KNOW its full?
I'm not in any way saying you SHOULD wear your tanks lower, but there are instances where its unavoidable.

No one, especially a recreational diver should ever be so heavy that they can't fin to the surface without dumping lead. Dumping lead is so you can remain at the surface easily once you get there. Diving such that you can't get there without dumping it is, in itself, an accident waiting to happen.

I won't argue cave diving, I'm not qualified and not interested.
In a wreck you don't always have room to be horizontal. I prefer to be angled up slightly. I know where my head is as its part of my body. I can navigate the beams in my attic without bumping my head. If I try it in a top hat I'll probably knock the hat off quickly. If my gear is lower than my head it probably won't get entangled or gradually bump the valve shut to begin with. Just my methods.

While I enjoy solo diving, I'm not about to solo penetrate anything. The best way to get untangled in any situation is to have a buddy do it for you. Attempting to untangle anything behind you by reaching back where you can't see can make it worse.

both in a cave or wreck, avoiding silting is often a primary consideration which requires good posture and finning technique including a horizontal posture. Certainly there are vertical tunnels and shaftes that might force you to go vertical but those are the exception. Also, it's always easier to reach your valves when horizontal or even slightly head down where gravity is helping rather than hindering. In fact one of the mistakes commonly made by divers when learning to reach their valves is the natural tendancy to go vertical when they try.

I agree that the best way to get lose of something that has you from behind is a buddy but...both caves and wrecks have plenty of restricted areas that sometimes makes it hard or implossible for a buddy to get to your back. Restrictions (an area that doesn't allow for divers to be side by side) is essentially a temporary solo situation which is why cavern and intro cave divers aren't supposed to enter them. All my entaglements in overheads have been pretty minor. In all cases except one, I was forced to get myself out. We're talking really minor here, where a line or something gets looped around a piece of equipment (sometimes a valve or reg), you feel it, and just reach over and lift it off. The one time that some one else helped was when I was running a line downhill in a restriction that turned and I got the line wrapped around my foot. My wife was behing me and I just stopped and waited for her to take care of it and give me a signal to continue. So in overheads you can't count on help since some of the most likely places to need it are the most unlikely places for some one to be able to give it.

Also, as far as I know, being able to reach your valves (about a thousand times) is a requirement of every tech or overhead training program that I know of.

 

[waynne fowler]

1. Sure everyone forgets at least once, but I normally don't don my tank with the air off.
2. Dropping just weights would probably have been enough bouyancy wearing a drysuit. Should not have been so negative even with steel doubles. Still not so negative to kick against.
3. Ditch rig if #2 doesn't work
4. Both 2 and 3 should be tried before trying to turn air on. Might have found inflators not connected either. Gear can be replaced, ya know.

going for the valves would be WAY faster... of course this is true only if you've taken the time to set up so you can reach them.