Does AquaLung regulators really require less frequent inspection?

[JS1scuba]

How does Atomic get the great WOB numbers and the 2 year overhaul service interval?

WOB is not tested on an old reg. So the question doesnt fit.

WOB has to do with design and set up. Take ANY regulator that has a top end WOB -- put 100 dives on it and the WOB will change dramatically. As seats set, diaphragms get worked, parts take a set -- all of those will affect performance.

We adjust our regulators just about every 3 mos to keep them in top performance. After 100 dives they get overhauled - period. But, our stuff gets used hard.

A properly overhauled regulator should end up with the same WOB as it was when new. Assuming it is tested on the same machine under the same conditions.

cheers

jds

 

[redacted]

WOB is not tested on an old reg. So the question doesnt fit.

WOB has to do with design and set up. Take ANY regulator that has a top end WOB -- put 100 dives on it and the WOB will change dramatically. As seats set, diaphragms get worked, parts take a set -- all of those will affect performance.

We adjust our regulators just about every 3 mos to keep them in top performance. After 100 dives they get overhauled - period. But, our stuff gets used hard.

A properly overhauled regulator should end up with the same WOB as it was when new. Assuming it is tested on the same machine under the same conditions.

cheers

jds

I was assuming that Atomic must be using the higher hardness LP seat material to achieve their 2 year service interval (along with that 1.10 WOB). I was thinking the higher hardness material would require a little more spring force to overcome IP holding 2nd stage balancing fixed. Perhaps Atomic balances their 2nds a bit closer to the edge (like Apeks). I had not really thought about the effects of LP seat hardness on performance before.

I'm assuming from DA's post that if I took a new regulator and adjusted cracking pressure right to the edge with a new duro 70 LP seat and changed to new (same material & quality) duro 90 LP seat and made the same adjustment, that achievable cracking pressure would be somewhat higher with the higher hardness seat. Or am I missunderstanding DA's post. I believe I do understand the idea that a lower hardnes seat would have a greater tendency to take a set and thus might have a shorter expected life.

Just trying to understand what is going on here in case I ever have to start punching out my own LP seats.:11:

 

[CompuDude]

I just overhauled a pair of Legend LX's last week that I had personally overhauled the year before. The divers who own them do not do a lot of diving - a couple trips per year - but the regs had enough salt crusted on them and in them to a make an annual service worth doing. I really don't think they would have went another year without developing a problem and for these particular customers, the problem would have developed in the middle of a dive trip, making them less than happy.

Compared to Scubapro, Aqualung uses a much harder seat compound in their second stage, so the seat is more likely to last 2 years than is the softer Scubapro seat material. But the Scubapro seat material offers better performance with a lower inhalation effort, so the extended life and service interval of the Aqualung reg comes with a cost you pay on each and every dive.

The moral here is that an every other year overhaul may not be in your best interests as a diver or reg owner. Your regs may pass an inspection and flow test, but that does not mean they will go another year without developing issues. The problem from the tech perspective is that if your tech overhauls your regs every year, they are at risk of being accused of padding their pockets with the higher labor charge of an overhaul. At the same time it puts them in a position of making judgement calls about when is enough enough to justify an overhaul versus an inspection. So if they do an overhaul and cost the customer more money he or she complains, but if they do an inspection and the reg dies on a trip, the customer complains even louder. The result is that the odds of the customer complaining one way or the other are often weighed in the decision process and that really has no business being in the decision process at all.

Basically, unless their regs has been dove lightly and almost exclusively in fresh water and/or been VERY carefully rinsed after each salt water dive, my customers can expect an annual service every year on their Aqualung regs.

Realistically, the big winner in a bi-annual overhaul recommendation is the company offerring the free parts as they end up providing a lot fewer annual service parts over the life of an individual regulator. The customer saves a little (the price between the labor involved in an annual service and the cost of an inspection and flow test), but pays with decreased performance and the tech and the shop get stuck with the liability and customer satisfaction issues.

I know you're the expert, so I'd love to hear your opinion on the Atomic regs. I know their regs come with a 2-year service cycle... I don't think annual inspections are required at all, unlike the AquaLung. Is it best for Atomic owners to have their regs at least inspected annually, even if it's not required under warranty, or is the construction such that it's genuinely ok to service them every two years, as called for by Atomic?

 

[ppatrick]

If you buy it from them they should inspect it free every year. I have an Aqualung Calypso that I bought in 2001 and a Titan LX that I bought in 2002. Both are

Hope this helps.

Mike

Mike, where did you buy your BC and regulator? I would like to buy one from the dealer who gives me free annual inspection every year (or at least the first five years). Is it common for LDS to inspect regulator at no charge if bought from them? Do you know the shop owner or the inspector personally? I went to only two LDS in my area and both of them charge between $20 to $25 per stage (or about $60 to $75 for regulator and BC inspection).

I live Chicago area. Do you any dive shop that would do the free annual inspection if I buy their BC and regulator?


Thanks,

 

[BSea]

I was assuming that Atomic must be using the higher hardness LP seat material to achieve their 2 year service interval (along with that 1.10 WOB). I was thinking the higher hardness material would require a little more spring force to overcome IP holding 2nd stage balancing fixed. Perhaps Atomic balances their 2nds a bit closer to the edge (like Apeks). I had not really thought about the effects of LP seat hardness on performance before.

The Atomic actually releases the pressure on the LP seat when it isn't connected to a tank. So the LP seat only has seat pressure when it's being used, not all the time like other regs. This is the explaination for the "every 2 years or 300 dives" overhaul.

 

[AJ Tudor]

It's not advisable (Depending on who you ask) to leave it to every other year. Regulators should be surviced every year, or every 100 dives. Whichever comes first.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

The Atomic actually releases the pressure on the LP seat when it isn't connected to a tank. So the LP seat only has seat pressure when it's being used, not all the time like other regs. This is the explaination for the "every 2 years or 300 dives" overhaul.

BSea hit it on the head. Scubapro fielded an essentially similar system on the S600 in a shameless keep up with the Jones's move where the balance chamber was redesigned so that the pressure was removed from the seat when the reg was depressurized. But it proved to be more trouble than it was worth and it did overly complicate what is otherwise a simple, straight forward and very reliable poppet design. Consequently SP went back to the old design.

First stages are no great problem with regard to reliability and I am confindent the average first stage could go two years between annual services as long as it is well maintained, properly soaked and rinsed, etc. Actually I am confident a lightly used reg could go 4, 5 or more years without a service as all first stage designs rest with the orifice off the seat when it they are depressurized so wear on the seat during storage is not an issue. The limiting factors are the cycles on the seat from breathing and the dirt, salt and other crud that may accumulate and/or corrode the reg.

Those are critical factors though and are in my opinon valid reasons to do an annual service. So the extra service life allowed by harder seats or pressure off second stage poppet designs is only useful under a very limited set of circumstances.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

How does Atomic get the great WOB numbers and the 2 year overhaul service interval?

I never liked WOB numbers much. It's possibel to set the flow vane in the reg so that you get no inhalation effort or even positive pressure during the bulk of the inhalation phase, and it can create great WOB numbers but it does not create a reg that breathes naturally and it may cover for a high inhaltion effort that is for most divers the most noticeabel trait in a regulator. If it has a higher inhalation effort, divers will regard it as a harder breathing regulator regardless of what the total WOB may be.

Similarly, you can design a bigger than needed exhaust valve to reduce exhalation numbers to further boost the total WOB, but this can have a negative impact on the inhalation effort that is practical for use in the reg if the large exhaust valve aggravates case geometry fault issues. So designing a reg for great WOB numbers for the marketing pules to push is a very poor approach.

Plus, the sad fact is that most regs shipped from the factory are tuned at less than their best potential and if one of these regs were tested as an "off the shelf" reg, the inhalation effort and WOB will be higher than the reg is capable of producing.

Ideally an LDS should retune the reg after they recieve it (and after the second stage seat has begun to take a set) to ahcieve optimum performance. This does not always happen and it never happens with an on-line purchased reg that is then used in 3rd party testing by certain a magazine as being representative of the reg model as a whole.

WOB has to do with design and set up. Take ANY regulator that has a top end WOB -- put 100 dives on it and the WOB will change dramatically. As seats set, diaphragms get worked, parts take a set -- all of those will affect performance.

We adjust our regulators just about every 3 mos to keep them in top performance. After 100 dives they get overhauled - period. But, our stuff gets used hard.

Exactly right. Even when I see regs for an annual inspection or flow test, they get flow tested, adjusted, retested and invariably show a reduction in inhalation effort. So even if you choose not to have the reg serviced or inspected until your 2nd year, you are probably taking a performance hit throughout your second season.

I do 100-150 dives per year and I usually readjust my regs 2-3 times per season to maintain peak performance. Since I overhaul other people regs, I lack the excitement and motivation to do a full overhaul on my own until I have to, and I have found that at rate of 100-150 dives per year, I could never make it two years without a full annual service. Once season and just a little more is about all my regs will take without developing a sloppy IP lockup or similar warning of impending failure.

 

[redacted]

The Atomic actually releases the pressure on the LP seat when it isn't connected to a tank. So the LP seat only has seat pressure when it's being used, not all the time like other regs. This is the explaination for the "every 2 years or 300 dives" overhaul.

My old Scubapro metals also release the pressure on the LP seat -- if I remember to insert the mechanical purge depressers when I'm not using them. I decided to change all the o-rings in my old G500 so my grandaughter could use it. I think the count was 13 or 14 vs the 4 in my Balanced Adjustables.