Doc Deep dies during dive.

[DevonDiver]

I disagree that Garman's support group was a team except in the very loosest respect. Garman was not only the group leader, but he was the sole planner in this endeavor. The rest of the group consisted of sherpas, taxi drivers and of course, cheer leaders. It's my belief that in this case, no matter how much you want to assign blame to them, they were innocent bystanders with little to no comprehension of what was going on or why it was doomed to failure.

On this, we disagree.

Planning aside, it takes a coordinated team to run a project of this size. The group publicized themselves as a team... just see the Scuba TEC Facebook page.

Every member of that team had a personal responsibility to understand the nature if the task they were involved in. Ample resources are available to accomplish that....including this very board... on which some team members were posting... AND receiving unambiguous warnings.

Each team member ultimately had 3 courses of action:

1) To veto the project and remove themselves and their support from it.

2) To maintain involvement, but voice concerns and/or request amendments to the planning or conduct.

3) To offer full and positive support to the project, denying or stifling any concerns that may arise to them... encouraging and empowering Garman in his delusions.

I've been told at least 1 member of the team has serious concerns. I've not been able to clarify whether he voiced those concerns, suggested alternatives or threatened veto.

I've also been informed that several divers closely involved with Garman abstained from involvement in the project. One was "due to issues with Scuba TEC".

I might be wrong, I'm not able yet to confirm this, but I was under the impression that Garman's initial diving/ technical instructors/mentors were involved with the project? If so, how do we believe these people "knew nothing" and we're seduced by Garman's "expertise"? That those people had no idea of the factors involved, or the issues that have plagued past depth record attempts and famously killed divers before?

We can deny all I've written above, or we can look to understand how psychology causes it to happen.

None of this denies that Garman was a driven, compulsive, compelling and, probably, charismatic leader. A flawed leader, but one, nonetheless, the built a team around himself to attempt the project.

One good question that arises... which I think many people would identify with, that issue of deciding to support a flawed project or walk away from it.

Can you do "more good" by remaining involved and trying to steer things towards safety, or send a definitive message of disapproval by abstinence from further involvement.

On a lesser, more survivable project, I can understand why people might remain to help... deciding they can do more good by helping, than by walking away.

But, with hindsight, or greater awareness of the true risks, we can all see that 'electing to stay and support' was never going to effect the outcome in this particular instance.

The team should have unanimously vetoed support, categorically preventing Garman from making the attempt....if not as a 'wake up call', then by eliminating access to the resources and trained manpower he needed to accomplish the dives.

People 'sanctioned' Garman's project. They had a responsibility to understand what they would sanction. They had ample means to clarify that understanding. They chose not to... or did, but gave approval anyway.

That is why I suggest Groupthink as a psychological issue permitting the accident to occur.

 

[Storker]

the (Norwegian?) cave divers who had the deep fatalities a few months ago

I guess you're thinking about the Finnish cave divers who died in Norway in February last year

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ac...h-divers-dead-3-injured-plurdalen-norway.html
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ac...a-norway-body-recovery-operation-started.html

 

[AJ]

Sounds to me like "group think". With group think no one dares or wants to speak out, afraid of becoming an outcast. Decision making becomes stronger and stronger by ignoring warning signs and opinions outside the group. The group literally blocks out everone that does not agree with the group consensus. A strong leader with an outspoken opinion is almost always present.

May that have happened here also?

 

[FinnMom]

Here is pre-dive post; it seems that those involved really expected this to be a success and must have been shocked by the outcome. My sympathies for friends and family.

This is the endlessly bewildering part: why would anyone with a more than passing knowledge of (very) deep diving have expected this to be a success? I can see someone who really, really wanted to believe actually managing to believe it was possible (our minds can be very bad about poorly evaluting things about which we have strong feelings). But to think it was at all likely, for a whole group of peple to get on the bandwagon, this just... overwhelms my imagination.

 

[KevinNM]

It would be like a new category for automobile speed records that allows you to use only the frame of Yugos as the basis for your race car. At some speed, you know it will fall apart and kill you, and getting as close as possible to that point doesn't seem like a particularly worthwhile endeavor to me.

There are people who go out every year to Bonneville to try to run a motorcycle faster. I know a guy who was on a support team for one of these and they do fully understand that it's extremely dangerous. The current record is >376 mph per Wikipedia, and having an issue at that kind of speed is very likely going to result in a funeral. It is not a terribly rational pursuit, but consenting adults are allowed to things that I think are crazy.

 

[AJ]

But to think it was at all likely, for a whole group of peple to get on the bandwagon, this just... overwhelms my imagination.

Still, it happens more often than you think in all sorts of undertakings.

 

[Duke Dive Medicine]

I disagree that Garman's support group was a team except in the very loosest respect.

Planning aside, it takes a coordinated team to run a project of this size. The group publicized themselves as a team...

Pete and Andy,

We have a minor league team in town: the Durham Bulls. They're a baseball team by anyone's definition, but they'd be underdogs in the World Series.

Best regards,
DDM

 

[Akimbo]

This is the endlessly bewildering part: why would anyone with a more than passing knowledge of (very) deep diving have expected this to be a success?...

Human flight has been around much longer than mixed gas diving. I don’t see small groups of armatures trying to orbit the earth with a pressure change of less than one atmosphere (given pressurized suits). What makes divers think there is any glory in exceeding 20 atmospheres for a few seconds even though professionals have been safely working much deeper for decades? Are space enthusiasts that much smarter than divers? Apparently they are.

Yes, Saturation Diving is very expensive. That’s true until you compare one of these so-called deep dive records on Scuba to a saturation diving team’s productive man-hours at depth. Sat is much less expensive on a cost/productive second basis. Besides, most of the cost isn’t the diving, it is the ship the sat system is on and is required for the work they are doing and sea states they operate in.

Even motorcycle speed records make more sense. At least it is a real speed record on a common mode of transportation and a lot of R&D is being tested that can make bikes safer in the future.

 

[KevinNM]

Even motorcycle speed records make more sense. At least it is a real speed record on a common mode of transportation and a lot of R&D is being tested that can make bikes safer in the future.

Their is R&D, but a record attempt motorcycle looks like a typical motorcycle about as much as a top fuel dragster looks like a Toyota Corolla. Number of wheels, check. Everything else, not so much. They long ago passed the realm where a non-custom vehicle could compete.

Of course if people were doing these dives using custom gear built by real experts just for their attempt instead of COTS gear maybe the fatality rate would be lower.

 

[Akimbo]

Their is R&D, but a record attempt motorcycle looks like a typical motorcycle about as much as a top fuel dragster looks like a Toyota Corolla. Number of wheels, check. Everything else, not so much...

And a diver like this really resembles a Scuba diver?