Do you dive Side-Mount or Side Slung??

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Is that anything like common sense being common?
If some of the pictures being used by PADI to promote sidemount is any indication, then I'm thinking not unfortunately.

But after these 2 or 4 day courses, the instructor is still trying to figure stuff out for themselves. How can they trouble shoot someone else? For me, it's like taking driving lessons from a sixteen year old that just received his/her license.
I mostly agree. however, I think a better analogy would be to suppose that in all your years of driving a car you had only ever driven an automatic and never learned to drive a stick shift. The sixteen year old probably isn't going to be able to teach you how to do a hill start, but he'll probably be able to get you rolling. Also, you may be able to learn on your own, but you may burn up a clutch in the process.

So I look at sidemount instruction as more a convenience or money saving option, not as a necessity. Basic open water instruction on the other hand... well, I think most everyone would agree that is a necessity.
 
Back the the original post, the real problem is, what are you going to learn in a two day, open water sidemount class? I just don't see the utility of it, other than as a platform to sell gear.

Not all instructors sell gear. I don't sell any sidemount rigs. But I can understand your point. There are certainly some dive shop owners that will do nothing but push their most profitable line of gear during class, and every other chance they get.

---------- Post added March 4th, 2013 at 12:21 AM ----------

Coudn't all those examples be just as easily learned in a backmount course? I'm sure I'm wrong, but my initial opinion would be that the two main items in open water sidemount that really need to be learned is tank rigging and gas management. All the rest seem to be filler to make it a class.





I would think that if an instructor has a good understanding of things like center of balance, fulcrums, and buoyancy and how they apply to tanks and the diver, then they should be able to setup any sidemount BC properly.

A good sidemount class deals with a lot more than tank rigging and gas management. If that's all you've gotten out of a sidemount class then you were done a huge injustice.
 
A good sidemount class deals with a lot more than tank rigging and gas management. If that's all you've gotten out of a sidemount class then you were done a huge injustice.

I have no doubt that a GOOD sidemount class would. I've yet to actually see a syllabus of an Open Water Sidemount class that actually list what you are expected to learn. So my opinion above was based purely on my own attempts at learning to sidemount dive learning as I go.

What items in your opinion are more, or just as important as tank rigging and gas management to effectively learn to dive sidemount in an open water environment? Now take away all the stuff that would also apply to a backmount class like trim, buoyancy, propulsion techniques, and smb deployment (yes I ran across that as one of the skills) and what are you left with? Would you have to add any of those back in because sidemount would drastically change the way you approach trim, buoyancy, or propulsion compared to backmount?
 
I have no doubt that a GOOD sidemount class would. I've yet to actually see a syllabus of an Open Water Sidemount class that actually list what you are expected to learn. So my opinion above was based purely on my own attempts at learning to sidemount dive learning as I go.

What items in your opinion are more, or just as important as tank rigging and gas management to effectively learn to dive sidemount in an open water environment? Now take away all the stuff that would also apply to a backmount class like trim, buoyancy, propulsion techniques, and smb deployment (yes I ran across that as one of the skills) and what are you left with? Would you have to add any of those back in because sidemount would drastically change the way you approach trim, buoyancy, or propulsion compared to backmount?

Simply Sidemount with Garry Dallas You can see info regarding the course, or drop Garry a line for any queries you have.

I believe that trim/buoyancy and propulsion techniques are equally important in SM as they are in a BM course... But moving aside them, a partial removal of cylinder s)/full removal of a cylinder, especially steels would require practice in order to keep yourself balanced in the water if trying to maintain profile/a neutral hover, as an example.+
 
I have no doubt that a GOOD sidemount class would. I've yet to actually see a syllabus of an Open Water Sidemount class that actually list what you are expected to learn. So my opinion above was based purely on my own attempts at learning to sidemount dive learning as I go.

What items in your opinion are more, or just as important as tank rigging and gas management to effectively learn to dive sidemount in an open water environment? Now take away all the stuff that would also apply to a backmount class like trim, buoyancy, propulsion techniques, and smb deployment (yes I ran across that as one of the skills) and what are you left with? Would you have to add any of those back in because sidemount would drastically change the way you approach trim, buoyancy, or propulsion compared to backmount?

One of the major things in sidemount, and something I dedicate 4-6 hours of my classes to, is rig modifications and customizing the rig for you and the type of diving you're going to do. A sidemount rig is not as simple to set up as a backmount rig. There are lots of considerations and lots of ways to approach it. Anyone who is simply making changes to a rig without taking the diver who's going to be diving it into consideration is doing a huge injustice to that diver. And while trim is something that is covered in a backmount class, it is different in sidemount. There are a lot more things you can do to a sidemount system to affect trim than you can do in a backmount system. Gas donation is also quite different in sidemount than it is in backmount. You're not always breathing from the same regulator. I can go on, but then we'd be here for at least 2 days. :wink:
 
I have no doubt that a GOOD sidemount class would. I've yet to actually see a syllabus of an Open Water Sidemount class that actually list what you are expected to learn. So my opinion above was based purely on my own attempts at learning to sidemount dive learning as I go.

Knowledge development covers what you'd expect: pros/cons/approaches/theories of use/gas management etc. There is an emphasis on weighting, buoyancy, trim and propulsion that is absent in other (recreational level) PADI courses.

A practical application: Demonstrating the general setup, preparation and adjustment of a sidemount rig, including two cylinders, harness, BCD and accessories. Lots of instructor flexibility with this. Some instructors have a specific approach, others tailor for the student's needs. Some instructors have too little experience/expertise...and this flexibility enables them to teach without any methodological approach whatsoever..

Basic skill requirements are (confined water):

1. Assemble, don and adjust the sidemount equipment that will be used on the dive.
2. Demonstrate an appropriate sidemount entry into water shallow enough in which to stand and donning sidemount cylinders in the water.
3. Inflate the BCD to establish buoyancy, swim on the surface into water too deep in which to stand, perform a buoyancy check, and adjust for proper weighting.
4. Execute a five-point descent as a team and perform a descent check and bubble check.
5. Locate both SPGs and indicate the gas supply in each to the instructor and buddies.
6. Throughout the dive, in two-cylinder sidemount, manage gas by switching second stages as planned before the dive.
7. Establish neutral buoyancy and swim using flutter kicks and frog kicks (unless it is not possible for the student due to a physical limitation), with a buddy, 24
metres/80 feet to assess balance and trim, to make adjustments as required, and to develop/confirm familiarity with both kicks.
8. Recover and clear the second stage from behind/below the cylinder.
9. In two-cylinder sidemount, remove and release the second stage of one cylinder, secure the second stage of the other, clear it and begin breathing from
it, then recover the first second stage.
10. Establish neutral buoyancy and hover using breath control for at least one minute.
11. Respond to a simulated out-of-gas emergency as both the donor and as the receiver by sharing gas with a long hose second stage, then swimming 15
metres/50 feet maintaining contact with a buddy.
12. In two-cylinder sidemount, respond to a simulated failed regulator or failed cylinder valve by switching second stages (if necessary to maintain a breathing supply) and shutting down the simulated affected cylinder valve, within 60 seconds.
13. With a buddy, perform a safety stop in midwater for three minutes, not varying from the stop depth by more than 2 metres/7 feet.
14. Surface in water too deep in which to stand, establish positive buoyancy, remove the cylinder(s) and exit the water.
15. Establish positive buoyancy, enter water too deep in which to stand and don cylinders, connecting the BCD and other inflators as appropriate for the
configuration in use.
16. Swim underwater for a distance of not less than 24 metres/80 feet, including at least one turn of 180 degrees and swimming backwards using only kicks
(unless doing so is impossible due to a physical limitation), without making contact with the bottom.
17. Disconnect the lower attachment of at least one cylinder, swing it in front with the upper connection in place, swim at least 18 metres/60 feet, then reconnect the lower attachment.
18. Execute a proper ascent, and exit the water (any method), then enter the water using a method in which the diver dons the cylinders before entry (giant stride,
seated back roll, etc.)
19. Throughout the session, respond calmly, correctly and appropriately to simulated emergencies presented by the instructor.

A further 3 open water dives allow reinforcement of key emergency drills; air-sharing etc, development of buoyancy/trim, varied water entries, gas management, cylinder manipulation in the water etc etc.

What items in your opinion are more, or just as important as tank rigging and gas management to effectively learn to dive sidemount in an open water environment?

For me, particular emphasis upon developing;

1) 'Fundamental' diving techniques: buoyancy, weighting, trim and propulsion. I aim for basic 'tech level' development of those core attributes.

2) Emergency drills and protocols, appropriately translated for the rig. Ingrained, not just 'known'.

3) Appropriate entry/exit techniques from shore, large boat, small boat, calm/rough water, drop-lines, kitting protocols, buddy checks etc etc

4) Cylinder trim and stability - the most common identifier of weak training.

5) Control, comfort and maneuverability - inverted drills, underwater 'aerobatics', solidity of configuration (hose tangles etc when twisting/rolling...)

Now take away all the stuff that would also apply to a backmount class like trim, buoyancy, propulsion techniques, and smb deployment (yes I ran across that as one of the skills) and what are you left with? Would you have to add any of those back in because sidemount would drastically change the way you approach trim, buoyancy, or propulsion compared to backmount?

It depends who we assume the 'basic' trainee to be. IF the student were well pre-researched in alternative methods, approaches etc... that'd give them an indication on potential configurations they might use. The instructor is still beneficial to help them select the appropriate choices however, and also offer refinements, feedback and assessments.

Likewise, if we assume a solid pre-existing level of dive skill; let's say Fundies tech-pass level, then the diver should find it relatively undemanding to translate their existing skill set to the new configuration.

That said, the basic sidemount is only 4 dives (1xcw/3xow). That's not an unduly elongated time-frame. Even a well versed, competent diver can gain much during 2 days of tuition and refinement.

Most of the divers I train at basic sm aren't Fundies graduates however, and don't spend hours researching and discussing sidemount online. About 1/3rd of my students are 'pro level'...and even they benefit from some of the core aspects of training... Those coming from a tech background find it easier - but they normally opt for the tec-level sidemount courses (PADI Tec sidemount for those doing OW tech... the ANDI Sidemount more preferable for those with overhead environment needs...)

As others have said; the universal diving course constant applies - it depends greatly on the specific instructors expertise.
 
Rob, thank you for taking the time to elaborate a bit more.

And Andy... WOW! hopefully that was mostly a cut a paste job for you, but if not... big thanks for taking the time do break it down like that.

I completely GET that having a good foundation in the basics makes learning other aspects easier. And I'm not trying to fault either of you for adding value to your courses by including them. I just get the perception that it's 80% diving basics (or advanced diving if you prefer) and 20% sidemount specific tasks. As someone who has looked into sidemount classes, I've always wondered exactly what I would be getting for my time and money and I would hope that the reality would be just the opposite at 80% sidemount and 20% diving basics.

The following are some things that I personally would hope get taught in each agencies version of open water sidemount class. I'm sure they are all covered, but not sure they are taken to the extent I mention below.

* Tank specific bouyancy and trim lesson. So that as a student I get a good understanding of what my tanks are going to do when they are full versus almost empty and how that affects the rigging and the tanks center of balance. Actually taking full and nearly empty tanks in the water and figuring out the proper rigging for each.

* The difference between Aluminum and steel tanks, and actually diving with each.

* Tank cam band position relative to the attachment point on the d-ring. How changing these affects the position of the tanks and there trim. Then actually getting in the water and playing with different positions, good and bad so a student knows what each feels like. Not just having the instructor show the student the correct placement for his particular BCD.

* Having different hose lengths on hand so that a student could try several different hose route options and selecting the one that best suits his needs would also be a plus. But expecting an instructor to keep that type of inventory on hand is probably a bit much.

The emphasis being that when I get through with the class that I have a good understanding of the dynamics involved and as a result, I could get just about any Sidemount BC 90% dive-able and trimmed. The test could be if you can get a jacket BCD trimmed for sidemount then you pass that part of the class! Then, if there is still time or dives left, then hell yes lets work on buoyancy, trim, and kicks! I could stand to improve in all three of those areas.

Then maybe we wouldn't have divers looking like they are diving side slung. Hows that for getting back on-topic! :wink:
 
Rob, thank you for taking the time to elaborate a bit more.

And Andy... WOW! hopefully that was mostly a cut a paste job for you, but if not... big thanks for taking the time do break it down like that.

I completely GET that having a good foundation in the basics makes learning other aspects easier. And I'm not trying to fault either of you for adding value to your courses by including them. I just get the perception that it's 80% diving basics (or advanced diving if you prefer) and 20% sidemount specific tasks. As someone who has looked into sidemount classes, I've always wondered exactly what I would be getting for my time and money and I would hope that the reality would be just the opposite at 80% sidemount and 20% diving basics.

The following are some things that I personally would hope get taught in each agencies version of open water sidemount class. I'm sure they are all covered, but not sure they are taken to the extent I mention below.

* Tank specific bouyancy and trim lesson. So that as a student I get a good understanding of what my tanks are going to do when they are full versus almost empty and how that affects the rigging and the tanks center of balance. Actually taking full and nearly empty tanks in the water and figuring out the proper rigging for each.

* The difference between Aluminum and steel tanks, and actually diving with each.

* Tank cam band position relative to the attachment point on the d-ring. How changing these affects the position of the tanks and there trim. Then actually getting in the water and playing with different positions, good and bad so a student knows what each feels like. Not just having the instructor show the student the correct placement for his particular BCD.

* Having different hose lengths on hand so that a student could try several different hose route options and selecting the one that best suits his needs would also be a plus. But expecting an instructor to keep that type of inventory on hand is probably a bit much.

The emphasis being that when I get through with the class that I have a good understanding of the dynamics involved and as a result, I could get just about any Sidemount BC 90% dive-able and trimmed. The test could be if you can get a jacket BCD trimmed for sidemount then you pass that part of the class! Then, if there is still time or dives left, then hell yes lets work on buoyancy, trim, and kicks! I could stand to improve in all three of those areas.

Then maybe we wouldn't have divers looking like they are diving side slung. Hows that for getting back on-topic! :wink:

You have described part of my class. I do talk about specific buoyancy characteristics of several different types of tanks. And while we don't get in the water with nearly empty tanks, the tanks are usually nearly empty by the end of one of the dives so both are experience. Here's a sample of what you would get - Sidemount Cylinders « Rob Neto. And this does include aluminum cylinders. As you can see on this page - Sidemount « Rob Neto - I also dive with aluminum cylinders on a regular basis.

I discuss the effect of the cam bands on trim, but it's actually not quite what a lot of people make it out to be. Other things affect trim much more. Cam band positioning along the tanks has more to do with other things.

Hoses are inexpensive. I not only have several lengths available but also have them available to buy once you decide on the length for you. However, this is a two day class. There's not going to be time to change hoses between every dive. There are skills that must be done and you really need to feel comfortable with your gear in order to focus on those skills. If you just want to try out different hose lengths and cylinders and even sidemount rigs ( I have 7 different rigs in my inventory that are available for my students to try), then I suggest a different class where we can focus on that rather than the sidemount specific skills. If you want to improve your sidemount specific skills then you really ought to do that in one rig. Trying variations is fine. I discuss lots of variations, but I recommend my students try them after class so they can find what works best for them.
 
I completely GET that having a good foundation in the basics makes learning other aspects easier. And I'm not trying to fault either of you for adding value to your courses by including them. I just get the perception that it's 80% diving basics (or advanced diving if you prefer) and 20% sidemount specific tasks.

I'm assuming that we're talking about the PADI sidemount course. If so, it's worth bearing in mind that the written syllabus does reflect a high degree of simplicity. PADI are promoting sidemount heavily and certifying droves of new instructors. As is typical, inexperienced instructors need a simplistic and straight-forward program to deliver 'off-the-shelf'. Writing a program that relied upon a high degree of instructor expertise would be unworkable for the PADI model - as it is with all their courses.

As Rob's responses show - the real benefit of formal sidemount instruction occurs where the instructor is a true subject matter expert... a dedicated sidemount diver. As with all PADI courses - it is the instructor's ability to 'go beyond the minimums' that develops tangible benefit and value.

There's no excuse for not setting performance standards for cylinder trim, positioning, control etc. They're woefully lacking from the course as it stands.... and, IMHO, their absence is entirely to blame for some of the worst teaching examples (plenty enough evidence of that on youtube). It's an issue I've been whispering about up the PADI chain..
 
PADI are promoting sidemount heavily and certifying droves of new instructors.
Is this (the 'droves' part) really true? I honestly have no idea how many people have been certified by PADI as SM instructors. Is that information known? Personally, I would offer an opposite experience regarding PADI's emphasis on SM, at least in the not too distant past. For several years, I tried to get them to do anything to communicate that they even had a SM offering (at the time, the Distinctive Specialty was it), and it seemed that they were so hung up on Rebreathers that the request fell of deaf ears. Maybe, now that they have put out a 'standard' recreational SM specialty and a Tec SM specialty, that has changed. Or, maybe the emphasis is more evident outside the US.
DevonDiver:
There's no excuse for not setting performance standards for cylinder trim, positioning, control etc. They're woefully lacking from the course as it stands.... and, IMHO, their absence is entirely to blame for some of the worst teaching examples (plenty enough evidence of that on youtube). It's an issue I've been whispering about up the PADI chain.
I am curious - what agency (not just an individual instructor like Rob, for instance) has developed written standards for SM that address these issues? I am not disagreeing with your statement that they are desirable, just wondering if any agency has gone that far. If so, I would love to see what those standards look like.
 

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