Do we need instructors?

[DaleC]

Forget it. In regards to this thread you are a waste of time.

 

[captain]

What will happen to the SCUBA industry when a cheap, reliable compressor comes onto the market? Will those who say "go get your fills somewhere else" change their tune when the customer says "OK". I'm thinking of the effect that internet sales has had on LDS's. Will shops change and give customers what they want (and forget about putting themselves in the position of judge and jury) or will they stick to their guns and simply fail.

I get my fills from a home based compressor. Not so much because it's half the price (though that doesn't hurt) but more because the owner lets me dive the way I want to dive and doesn't have a cow over soloing or vintage gear. I want air, not someones opinion on diving.

If compressors were more in demand prices would drop by the rule of economy of scale. But shop perpetuate the idea that compressing air is a techinical and expensive procedure.

 

[I Dive]

But shop perpetuate the idea that compressing air is a techinical and expensive procedure.

What type of compressor do you personally own and run?

 

[gcbryan]

As the OP, I'll just throw in a few comments. My intention was never to suggest that every potential new diver would know of a mentor or that there would be mentors who wanted to see the same volumes as an instructor...otherwise they would just become an instructor.

In climbing, you go to the climbing gym in the bad weather months, if you go frequently and get better the regulars know who you are and you make friends. When good weather comes and you can climb outside someone will ask you to come along and gradually you get some experience under the guidance of a mentor if you have 'proved" yourself prior to that. If you aren't into it and don't improve yourself very few people are going to ask you to come along.

Something like that could happen in scuba alongside the tradition instructor method. In scuba most people would still get some or most of their training with an instructor...it just wouldn't be required because they need air.

I do disagree with shops needing to agree with someone's dive plan in order to sell them air. A shop owner of course has that right but the grocery store owner has that right as well. What if an vegetarian grocery store owner refused to sell you meat (OK bad analogy because he wouldn't be selling meat in the first place!) but you get the point.

Selling someone air who has a solo diving cert but not selling it to someone who doesn't is not something I'd want to see from any LDS that I'd go to. What about quizzing an OW diver who plans to go to 80 fsw?

Blackmail is a little strongly worded but the diver is somewhat held captive let's say. Most people wouldn't get their AOW cert just based on it's usefulness if it wasn't required for other reasons. Many dive shops wouldn't be able to have their quality of instruction stand on it's own if air was freely available elsewhere.

That's a bit of the reason for this thread. If the quality of professional instruction is there it should stand on it's own as it has to do in climbing for instance. There you can learn on your own or take classes but there is nothing to "persuade" you one way or another. You can buy climbing gear without having to prove to anyone that you know how to use it.

Therefore much of the climbing training that is available is pretty good. It has to be since no one has to take it.

I think a little competition in scuba along those lines might be beneficial.

 

[captain]

What type of compressor do you personally own and run?

Originally made by Luchard in France and sold by US Divers (aka AquaLung) as the Cyclone, 3.5 cfm @3000psi.

 

[I Dive]

Originally made by Luchard in France and sold by US Divers (aka AquaLung) as the Cyclone, 3.5 cfm @3000psi.

Can you still buy them? How much? I'm not one that hates dive shops for charging me for air, but I'm also not one who overlooks alternatives!

 

[theduckguru]

While a little off the tread topic, I wonder what the economic price point would be on an scuba tank exchange vending similiar to propane exchanges at various hardware and lumber outlets would be?

Check out a tank #454 from bin #12 with your credit card, return tank #454 to bin 12. Don't return the same tank, you get billed for a tank replacement.

Sounds like a solution since the LDS's say they're subjected to a lot of liability and they don't make any money from fills anyway.

You could have say 5 operators serving all south Florida. Seems to be working ok for propane.

 

[I Dive]

While a little off the tread topic, I wonder what the economic price point would be on an scuba tank exchange vending similiar to propane exchanges at various hardware and lumber outlets would be?

Check out a tank #454 from bin #12 with your credit card, return tank #454 to bin 12. Don't return the same tank, you get billed for a tank replacement.

Sounds like a solution since the LDS's say they're subjected to a lot of liability and they don't make any money from fills anyway.

You could have say 5 operators serving all south Florida. Seems to be working ok for propane.

I don't see how you could do Nitrox mixes. There is to wide a range. You can offer the standard 32 and 36 but what if someone wants 28? If you limit your product line to air21 only, you still have an issue with trained people doing the sales. With propane, a gas station attendant, Lowes employee, or whoever just takes one cylinder from a customer and replaces it with another. You can't do that with SCUBA without opening up a ton of problems. What if the renter sucks it down to zero? Now you need Vis before renting it again. What if the renter fills the tank on their own and oil ends up in it? What if they fill it with unclean air and return it as full? What if they take an air tank and dump Nitrox in it? Or Helium? Or propane? I have a hard enough time trusting a rental tank from a shop I'm familiar with let alone swinging by 7/11 and grabbing from a cage..

 

[Thalassamania]

The problem is liability (unfortunately). The OP posted a question that assumed that liability wasn't an issue. In the real world, it is.

Actually the only liability that a shop has is with respect to the quality of the air. They are though, by checking C-cards, actually increasing their liability. If liability were the real issue they should never, ever, check C-cards.

 

[Uraluni]

Back in the day when everyone was still figuring out how scuba worked and how the body reacted, then maybe instructors were few and far between. However...these days we have a plethora of brains and experienced people to help pass along their knowledge and experience along to others.

There are several organizations around that have established basic rules around how to dive safely. In fact, several nations with serious ocean-going forces have developed some really nice procedures and practices to deal with how the human body reacts to the ocean depths.

Why would you not want to take advantage of what they've learned?

Dive instruction has opened up a whole "economic" for thousands of people and provided a global platform for them to enjoy a great part of the world previously not known well 20-50 years ago.

If not for instructors and the repository of information they've acquired, we'd be still breathing out of old fire extinguisher tanks and wondering why we feel funny at 100' down.