Do I need a Phoenix Nozzle?

[Doubler]

I am trying to purchase a 1970 US Divers Royal AquaMaster. Do I need the Phoenix Nozzle to connect my SPG, Octopus and BCD LP connector or is there another way?

 

[Nemrod]

Yes you need one.

You can, use a hookah port LP adapter and a three way swivel for an octo and a LP inflator hose and then a banjo adapter for an spg.

If your RAM has a short yoke then you will need a long yoke to allow it to accept the banjo. Thing is that many modern tanks use the Thermo Pro valves and they just do not work well with the banjo often so, yes, the Phoenix is the ultimate answer.

Since twin hose regulators were used in a time before the BC and before the spg was considered a requirement many of us still dive them as they were intended, though I do like an spg. A Phoenix will allow you to dive in modern form or pure vintage by removing the offending LP hoses and plugging the ports.

Diver using reproduction Voit 50 Fathom:

Photo by N.

N

 

[rstofer]

Some J valves and some K valves have a 3/8" high pressure port that is normally capped. Remove the plug and you can install an SPG on the valve. It will be on your right side but you'll get over it. A standard HP hose has a 7/16" fitting so you need a special hose.

Trident has 3/8" HP hoses: Part number A103 for a 28" hose and AA33 for a 30" hose. I think the 28" is adequate but I just hooked it up last night and I haven't had it in the water. On the Phoenix nozzle, I think the 28" is too short. I need to think about it a little but, in the meantime, I ordered a couple of 30" hoses.

FWIW, I order these through my LDS.

Download the Trident catalog (Google). In it you will find all kinds of odd fittings to deal with the hookah port. You will first need the hookah adapter from Vintage Double Hose (www.vintagedoublehose.com)

For a J valve: go to eBay and search for item # 130300292238

EDIT: ------------
EDIT: That 'J' valve appears to be a 'K' valve. Maybe the photo is incorrect.
EDIT: Since you will have an SPG, the J valve functionality isn't required.
EDIT: ------------

The K valve I bought yesterday was made by Dacor. I don't see another on eBay at the moment.

At the end of the day, the pressure gauge is pretty much dedicated to the tank. At least they will be for mine. I will probably have 3 tanks set up this way.

Richard

 

[DA Aquamaster]

The reality is that new Phoenix nozzles won't be available until at least May and Bryan is not accepting pre-orders at this time like he has in the past, I suppose to avoid any issues with the inevitable production delays that in the past sparked interest that Bryan may have interpreted as complaints rather than just plain excitement and anticipation. So...May at the earliest (I suspect July is more likely) and you'll need to check on the vintage double hose site and order one when they appear...and before they disappear.

In the interim you have two options:

1. The basic option - a $15 hookah port adapter that will allow you to attach a single inflator or octo hose.

2. The deluxe option - a $15 hookah port adapter and the $35 Trident AA53 3 LP port adapter that will allow you to attach an octo, inflator and dry suit inflator hose.

The hookah port adapter is available at vintage double hose.com.

Hookah port adapter

Bryan also sells a reproduction banjo fitting to attach an SPG for $35 (a real steal as originals used to sell for $100 if you could fnd one).

banjo fitting

As well as a long yoke (also available in the flat USD logo style) for $50:

long yoke

The AA53 adapter is a Trident part that your shop may have or can order.

Now, when you add up the $15 hookah port adapter, the $35 AA53 adapter, the $35 banjo fitting and the $50 long yoke you have $135 invested compared to the $200 or so that a Phoenix nozzle will cost a few months later, so it depends how much you want to dive it in the next few months. Or alterantively on whether you will buy another double hose reg - like most of us do.

I'd also suggest that with a Royal Aquamster, there is less incentive to upgrade to the Phoenix as the RAM is already balanced and can already use the current US Conshelf/Titan seat. As long as it has a later 3000 psi yoke (which should be the case for a 1970 model) it is good to go with perhaps a few tweaks from Vintagedouble hose.com like a new silicone diaphragm and new high flow cage valves and silicone mushroom valves.

On the other hand, RAM's often sell for more money even before you put more money into them for new hoses, mouthpieces, diaphragms, duckbills, etc, so buying a DA Aquamaster for less money and then adding a Pheonix nozzle is often a better idea. Alternatively buy a DA from Bryan at Vintage double hose that has already been rebuilt, re-hosed, re-mouthpieced and generally updated, then have him add the Phoenix nozzle later.

If you have to add new hoses, mushroom valves, diaphragm and a rebuild kit, it is not hard to put another $175 into a DA or RAM you buy off e-bay or from someone else so be aware of that when you consider the purchase price as a $200 RAM or DA will end up costing the same as a $400 DA or RAM from Bryan that is already updated, tuned and ready to dive.

 

[Doubler]

Thanks for all the great information. I'll probably be asking lots of questions. I had a Royal Aquamaster back in the 80's and like a fool sold it for $20 because my cat had decided the mouth piece would be a good place to take a leak. The reason for all the "offending LP hoses" is my wife says she won't dive with me with out them. My "PLAN" is to get her to dive it and get her one in the future. She was worried that it is old, I told her so am I and that we have had new stuff crap out during the first dive. From my research it appears that the DA and RAM are bullet proof if maintained properly and that they are simple and breath as well or better that the modern single hose.

 

[simonbeans]

Although this board does have a following for vintage dive gear, I suggest you ask your questions on the vintagedoublehose.com site. The designer of the Phoenix is the moderator of the thread about that modification and can answer your questions directly. Also, Bryan who provides the nozzle will have your answer as to availability. Although some VDH members respond here, VDH is where more double hose "veterans" hang out.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

From my research it appears that the DA and RAM are bullet proof if maintained properly and that they are simple and breath as well or better that the modern single hose.

I agree. When first introduced, single hose regs were a less expensive alternative and most divers aspired to own a double hose.

I often wonder if things may have been different if the Phoenix nozzle were availble then - or even a Hookah port adapter. Would double hose reg then have survived the rise of the power inflator and octo?

In terms of reliability, both the first and second stages in a double hose reg are for all practical purposes sealed from contact with water. That trait along with the large surface area, makes them ideal for use in cold water. Also, most DH users need to get them serviced about every 10 years or so as neither the first or second stage in a DA or RAM is very maintenence intensive.

Views differ on how to maintain the hoses. Most divers rinse the exhaust hose (the one way mushroom valve in the mouthpiece keeps the intake hose reasonably dry and drawing some air through it will dry what does get in there), some remove the intake hose and rinse and dry both hoses and a few take the cans apart (if they have a band clamp rather than C-clips) and rinse and dry everything. I am a "rinse the exhaust hose" kind of guy and will take the cans apart and sanitize the hoses 2-3 times a year just to be sure.

Mechanically speaking my two PRAMs will allow inhalation effort of .5" and .7" of water respectively - as good as any single hose reg and better than the vast majority of single hose regs. But...where the body of the reg is positioned is vital to getting good performance in the water. In general the tank must be worn lower to leave the body of the reg between the shoulder blades with the top about even with the base of the neck. Also, you want a BC plate or cam pack that will leave the reg very close to your back. The extra lenght of a RAM or DA with a Phoenix nozzle attached can mean that is may not clear the hard packs on many BC's and may not be able to ride as low as it needs to ride.

Options include:

1. A BP wing with the shoulder straps adjusted a bit longer than normal to get the plate to ride lower along with an STA or slots in the plate that will allow a low mounted tank.

2. A freedom plate more or less designed to keep a DH reg in the right place. (pictured below)

3. A vintage harness like the excellent travel harness that Simonbeans makes. (Nemrod is using one in the picture above)

 

[Nemrod]

You need to tell your wife to cool her jets on this "old thing" because that is being silly. Let's see, we last went to the moon in the early 70s, about the time the RAM ceased production, the worlds largest airplane was built by Howard Hughes who has been gone now for 20 years. Tesla, Einstein likewise have been dead ofr decades and I don't see anyone around today as smart. Well, the lefties claim our President has a high IQ but when pressed fail to provide his actual IQ sort of like his birth certificate. Let's see, muscle cars that are to this day highly prized are of the same vintage as the RAM. This old thing is as if people a few decades ago were incompetents, no wonder extrapolated by hundreds of years we figure aliens had to have helped the Egyptians build the pyramids because we silly humans could not possibly have figured that out.

Here is the real question, why is it today that divers need poodle jackets, octos, spgs, split fins, waterproof snorkels, redundant systems and all that foolishness when apparently for decades scuba divers did just fine without.

Sharks don't have a poodle jacket BC, they don't need an spg, and they are old, oh, I think sharks first made a big splash about 360 million years ago during the Carboniferous. If we don't kill them all they will be around another 360 million.

Pics by N

N

 

[rstofer]

Thanks for all the great information. I'll probably be asking lots of questions. I had a Royal Aquamaster back in the 80's and like a fool sold it for $20 because my cat had decided the mouth piece would be a good place to take a leak. The reason for all the "offending LP hoses" is my wife says she won't dive with me with out them. My "PLAN" is to get her to dive it and get her one in the future. She was worried that it is old, I told her so am I and that we have had new stuff crap out during the first dive. From my research it appears that the DA and RAM are bullet proof if maintained properly and that they are simple and breath as well or better that the modern single hose.

I just got my Phoenix (PRAM) wet a couple of weeks ago. It works very well. But, as the regulator can is behind your back, the cracking pressure is still dependent on attitude in the water. When vertical, the breathing effort is a good as the best single hose regs. Floating on my back, I actually have to breathe back against the tendency to freeflow. Some attitudes will result in somewhat more difficulty in breathing. OK, fine... That's the way it is. I can deal with it. My wife will NOT. No way in the world will she ever be comfortable with a DH.

Have you thought about a pony bottle for redundancy and inflation?

I may wind up with the pony because I want to dive my Mistral. There is no IP (single stage reg) so BC inflation and octo are out of the question.

I need to reconsider the banjo fitting. I blew 3 o-rings in a matter of minutes; before the tank even got wet. It's odd; the tank, banjo and reg had been assembled and pressurized multiple times over a period of weeks with no problem. Then, when it is time for my grandson to use the reg (RAM), we lose o-rings. More study to follow... Or just walk away from the banjo fitting and use valves with HP ports. Or convert the RAM to PRAM.

Richard

 

[captain]

The B-52 bombers that the Air Force flies are 30 years older than most of the pilots who fly them and in the future may end up being 50 years older than the pilots who will be flying them.