Do I need a BC like the students wear?

[Jim Lapenta]

I taught in jacket, back inflate, and BPW. No student ever had an issue with the gear I was in. A thorough debrief on the surface of whatever gear you are using and a relaxed, unrushed pool session and there will be no issue.
Open water dives I always took a BPW because on checkouts you shouldn't be demonstrating what you want the student to do. You ask them to demo the skills.
On some OW dives I used sidemounted lp50s.
If a shop requires you to have some certain type or brand, they should supply it. AT NO COST TO YOU.
If they don't, that says they don't care about you other than being a walking uncompensated advertisement for them.

 

[fred32176]

I am not an instructor and I was certified this spring. The shop I trained with provides students Scubapro hydros. They prefer students learn with a back inflate BCD. I never dove with a jacket style BCD. I am just pointing out not all shops train with jacket style BCDs.

 

[Still Kicking]

I am not an instructor and I was certified this spring. The shop I trained with provides students Scubapro hydros. They prefer students learn with a back inflate BCD. I never dove with a jacket style BCD. I am just pointing out not all shops train with jacket style BCDs.

Do you mind saying what the cert cost and did it include the rental? Just curious about the comparison to shops in my area with less expensive equipment (less than $399).

 

[fred32176]

I believe I paid $399 for the training and $75 for equipment rental/air and entrance fees for the OW dives (0 since have a state park pass and a $10 discount at Devils Den). I wasn't worried about the cost and was happy to learn with a back inflate BCD.

 

[Germie]

I taught in jacket, back inflate, and BPW. No student ever had an issue with the gear I was in. A thorough debrief on the surface of whatever gear you are using and a relaxed, unrushed pool session and there will be no issue.
Open water dives I always took a BPW because on checkouts you shouldn't be demonstrating what you want the student to do. You ask them to demo the skills.
On some OW dives I used sidemounted lp50s.
If a shop requires you to have some certain type or brand, they should supply it. AT NO COST TO YOU.
If they don't, that says they don't care about you other than being a walking uncompensated advertisement for them.

Exactly. I think not a lot of instructors have teached with longhose and bpw, so don't know how it works themselves. No problem.
I also have used sidemount on open water dives, and for a cmas club sometimes my ccr. The ccr was not my idea, but I came to the water for a solodive and they had a shortage in instructors, so asked me to take 1 or 2 students. After that this happened a couple of times, I said, maybe it is better to call me before, then I can take a twinset. You can do on ccr also OOG skills, as you have a bailout with you. But finding a regulator back is quite hard
Also if a student pops up, it is harder to pull it down again as your counterlungs also have an amount of gas to breath from and you cannot drain these completely.

During an advanced open water 1:1 course directly after a open water course, I changed half a dive with a student with my twinset and took his normal bcd and single tank. I saw he still had problems with bouyancy and even that everything fitted, I thought maybe it is his bcd. We changed, he had a way much better dive and after that, he bought a single tank wing.

I can understand that if you are affiliated with a shop that they want you to use the same gear as they sell, but they must provide it to you then for free in my eyes.

But it is not required to use a normal bcd, a bpw with twinset is not forbidden in standards. And even if you read, use a ccr is not forbidden, but that is not what I prefer with real beginners.
Normally I only dive ccr in courses when I teach a rebreather course, or do the deeper trimix dives. The skill dives with oc students, I also dive oc. On an oc cave course, I also dive oc most times.

 

[paddydiver]

I must respectfully disagree with this pronouncement. As someone who has used an AIR2 for well over 20 years and currently owns 3, the statements are just wrong. As an inflator, the AIR2 works just as well as any of the several others I used, and as an alternate regulator it works as well as a conventional octo and is very easy to get to since I already know where it is since I’m using it for buoyancy control.

I’m not an instructor and don’t plan to be, but as a career teacher (46 years, now retired) I recognize the importance of modeling for the student. But as a diver, I want my gear configured for me to dive... and if I’ve done a proper pre-dive with my buddy, he’ll know what to expect, and hopefully he won’t be so careless as to suffer an out-of-air event anyway!
Sorry if this sounds like an attack or rant, but when I read such statements made as absolute truth, I just cannot leave them unchallenged.
Respectfully,
Green Frog

A 'conventional Octo' should be nothing less then a fully functioning Regulator, no different from your primary.
Granted it works ok as an inflator but it's a bit cumbersome and it's a lot heavier and so will be prone to knocking against things when you are diving with good trim. That is unless you have it fastened which seeing as its an alternate airsource you shouldn't.
Back to it's primary function as an alternate airsource; I assume you use the Air2 and donate your primary to your buddy? This means your primary should be on a long Tec style hose as a standard hose is too short and a standard octohose is really too long for you to use constantly yourself.

Not ranting either, just over a long career I've had them and I've seen them in action and I believe they are a fad that should have disappeared (along with splitfins )

 

[Green Frog]

paddydiver, your well thought out response just reinforces my attitude that what is best for me, may not be best for everybody else. We each have our own preferences and levels of comfort. I’m not convinced that the alternate air source has to be fully identical to the primary 2nd stage. In fact, the last “expert” who looked at my rig had one of the tiny Aqua Lung octo seconds that are IMHO at least an affectation more than a solution.

As long as I can get a reliable flow of air when I need it, I’m good. As for length of my primary hose, it is a little longer than the original… this gives me greater range of motion as I am using it, and is sufficiently long to donate if necessary.

As for weight of the AIR2 and its being in the way if not stored in an inaccessible position, I just find this to be untrue. A long hose octo presents these challenges to a much greater degree for me.

With all respect, I’ll just resort to a phrase that was popular before many folks on this board were born, “Different strokes for different folks,” which translates to today’s “You do You”.



PS the aforementioned “expert” was teaching a refresher course wearing a BP/W in the pool… he wasn’t hawking BP/Ws for everyone, he just wanted me to buy a newer BCD and reg from the dive shop he represented.

 

[covediver]

Shops want their instructors to exhibit the equipment the shop carries. The influence of the instructor on dive equipment purchases by students has long been recognized to the point it is now a truism. I have found the requirement applies less so to divemasters in general and student divemasters in particular. If your gear configuation is not to the instructor's liking, the shop should provide you with a bc for sessions where you may interact with students.

I first ran into this issue when I was working as and DM/AI for a shop in the 1980s. I used a Seaquest Backmount BC (an early version of "wings"). The shop owner remarked one day that some students were asking about it (by then the model ws discontinued). He was glad it worked for me but he wished I would use the jacket bc's that the shop sold. I remarked that I am working for dives (no one tipped on California dive boats in those days except for the galley crew), he had no issue when I purchased the backmount two years earlier, and that if he had an issue he should either provide one for me or let me purchase one at cost. He gave me a jacket BC from rentals to use in the class and then offered to give me the instructor discount. I continued to work free until he revoked the discount on the grounds that his paid instructors were complaining that I had that perk but was not an instructor. That was the last class I ever worked for that shop or those instructors.

 

[boulderjohn]

If you are hired by a shop, what you believe or want will not matter. You will have to do what they want. That makes it pointless to do anything now in anticipation of what might happen later.

The most likely scenario for pool sessions is that you will wear gear from the same rental supply the students use. That puts you in the same gear as the students, and it saves your personal gear from the ravages of chlorine. For open water dives, you may be asked to use your own, and they will want it to be something they sell.

There is another relatively rare possibility. The head of a major industry advocates that instructors always use their own gear any time they are seen diving by students, and that gear should be precisely what the shop has identified as the target models for each piece of gear. He says the shop should identify the fins, wetsuits, BCDs, regulators, and computers they most want customers to buy and then require their instructors to purchase (at a discount) those items and tell their students that they selected those items themselves because they are the very best. He calls it the instructor uniform. If you work for a shop that follows that advice, you will want to wait until you are hired so you get a discount on your gear.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

If you are hired by a shop, what you believe or want will not matter. You will have to do what they want. That makes it pointless to do anything now in anticipation of what might happen later.

The most likely scenario for pool sessions is that you will wear gear from the same rental supply the students use. That puts you in the same gear as the students, and it saves your personal gear from the ravages of chlorine. For open water dives, you maybe asked to use your own, and they will want it to be something they sell.

Their is another relatively rare possibility. The head of a major industry advocates that instructors always use their own gear any time they are seen diving by students, and that gear should be precisely what the shop has identified as the target models for each piece of gear. He says the shop should identify the fins, wetsuits, BCDs, regulators, and computers they most want customers to buy and then require their instructors to purchase (at a discount) those items and tell their students that they selected those items themselves because they are the very best. He calls it the instructor uniform. If you work for a shop that follows that advice, you will want to wait until you are hired so you get a discount on your gear.

I’m still trying to figure out if this is good or bad?
On one hand everybody is in the same gear so training (gear wise) is standardized (according to that shops whim). I suppose it makes it easy, “just buy this”.
On the other hand the evil money grubbing shop and their profiteers are only interested in numbers so the gear with the biggest markup is used even though it might be cheesy and not in the best interest of the students or the instructors to use.
IDK? Flip a coin.

The best would be to give everyone a choice and teach according to the different gear selections. This is actually how it would be out in the real world.