DM blew me off

[nimoh]

As a new diver, I will give my perspective. I took a 3 day course where the first day was a discover dive, the second day was the pool dives and the theory, and the third day was the final ow dives. Basically all of my theoretical training took place in one afternoon--4 hours. In retrospect I don't think there is anyway someone can get the proper training in 4 hours.

My observation is that there are 2 classes of divers out there--the well trained totally independant divers, and the half assed trained semi independant divers.My experience is many of the dive shops look at divers this way already. If someone comes in to their shop who they suspect is new or shaky they tell the boat crew or dm to keep an eye out, or they send an extra dm out, or they tell the diver they need to pay for their own dm.Many new divers recognize they are shaky or they are still afraid and they hire a private dm. They want the extra saftey. So maybe there needs to be 2 classes of ow certificates- class a that shows they are totally independant, and class b that says they are still shaky and require supervision.The dive shops could cater their dives to the 2 classes of divers, and I suspect would charge more for class b. I think many people who dive a few times a year on a cruise would choose to classify themselves as a class b diver and would like the security of knowing they are diving with a more supervised group. To become a class "a" ow diver you would have to pass more stringent tests.

This is just a thought anyway.

I think you make a good point, however, this is supposed to be the difference between an Open Water diver and a Discover Scuba Diving diver. The former should be capable of planning and executing their own dives safely, while the latter requires supervision.

You could also make the case that OW divers should require supervision, and Advanced Open Water divers should be capable of planning and executing their own dives safely. Although I think there are AOW divers that slip through the cracks of the system and are not advanced at all.

At some point we have to stop downgrading the classes and fixing the training. Unfortunately, I fall into InTheDrink's assessment of the situation, I can rant about it, but don't offer much in the way of a solution.

 

[Stoo]

Stoo, anybody who reads SB knows it takes a good deal to render me speechless, but you have done it.

LOL. Ya, I just kept asking them over and over, thinking I had misunderstood. But nope... Darwin was apparently on his week off. On the upside, they "promised" that they were going 'pooter shopping when they got home. I was tempted to lend them my spare, but decided against it.

And ya, I was impressed at the apparently successful resolution of what might have been a bend. Of course, he might have just slept funny too, but the timing was certainly suspect.

 

[Scott from LongIsland]

I think you make a good point, however, this is supposed to be the difference between an Open Water diver and a Discover Scuba Diving diver. The former should be capable of planning and executing their own dives safely, while the latter requires supervision.

You could also make the case that OW divers should require supervision, and Advanced Open Water divers should be capable of planning and executing their own dives safely. Although I think there are AOW divers that slip through the cracks of the system and are not advanced at all.

At some point we have to stop downgrading the classes and fixing the training. Unfortunately, I fall into InTheDrink's assessment of the situation, I can rant about it, but don't offer much in the way of a solution.

At what point do you stop blaming the training and put the responsibility on the individual diver? It does not take a ton of reasoning to realize that in order to participate in this sport you will need to be dependent on a life support system. When one is on life support it is a serious matter...in any conditions. To take that lightly and follow a DM blindly is well...not the brightest thing to do. It does not take further training to recognize this, it is common sense. Always look out for #1.

 

[InTheDrink]

Darwin must love divers and hence taking it easy on them. Body count is still very low and as long as that remains the case 4 day zero to quaking hero will remain en place.

 

[nimoh]

At what point do you stop blaming the training and put the responsibility on the individual diver? It does not take a ton of reasoning to realize that in order to participate in this sport you will need to be dependent on a life support system. When one is on life support it is a serious matter...in any conditions. To take that lightly and follow a DM blindly is well...not the brightest thing to do. It does not take further training to recognize this, it is common sense. Always look out for #1.

good point, and although I have no facts to back this up, my impression is that there are a lot of OW divers being turned out by poor training. From reading on scubaboard, there are a lot of instructors that go above and beyond to make sure their OW students are good divers (Jim Lapenta comes to mind, as he introduces rescue skills during open water training iirc). Students can only learn what they are taught, and it is up to the instructor to ensure that they understand it

 

[Absolutbill]

I took a six class over three week standard course. I felt my instructor glossed over a few key things. What did I do? I dove within my comfort level, yes following a DM around. Now after 12 months and almost 60 dives I am very comfortable in the water, diving from boats, shore, at night and have been diving in current and rough seas, and down to 115. That was all with proper training, building up staying within my limits, at no time did I expect to babysat or rescued.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

good point, and although I have no facts to back this up, my impression is that there are a lot of OW divers being turned out by poor training. From reading on scubaboard, there are a lot of instructors that go above and beyond to make sure their OW students are good divers (Jim Lapenta comes to mind, as he introduces rescue skills during open water training iirc). Students can only learn what they are taught, and it is up to the instructor to ensure that they understand it

It's not just me. The rescue skills I teach to OW students are taught to every SEI trained diver. It is one of our standards. Along with being not only encouraged, but required, to add knowledge and skills that in our judgment will add to our students safety based on the conditions they are likely to encounter and to test on those as a condition of certification. We can deny certification if they do not meet these added requirements as we are the judges of their skills, knowledge, and ability. And we, not the agency, have the final say. So to keep things going we train so that students succeed. And personally I feel that my students are a reflection of me. For them to fail or give the impression that they are less than skilled, safe, competent divers who do not need to be baby sat is unacceptable. I want ops to look at them and say we don't need to worry about or watch those divers and for others to say I want to look like that. Who trained them?

Why every professional doesn't seem to want the same is baffling to me.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[diverrex]

Seriously??? You would report the DM for what? This new diver was running low on air. I think that the DMs responsibility at that point is to insure he heads up and surfaces safely, but he (the DM) also has the responsibility of the rest of the group so he can hardly drop everything to tend to this one guy, who was ended a dive normally, albeit early. The Divemaster is a Divemaster... Not a nanny for crying out loud.

I hung up my teaching credentials a few years ago, but I keep reading about people who bought a C-card but really have no friggin' idea how to dive. I just came back from Belize where I crossed paths with a family (Mom, Dad, 2 teenaged boys). They had been certified a year before in Cancun, at I assume, Juan's Discount Car Rentals, Tacos and Scuba Diving Lessons. I say this because that the end of our second day of diving together (same day, same ocean, but no where near them) they were filling in their logs and were debating how deep they had been and so on. I assumed that they, being newbies, perhaps weren't aware of the log function on their computers, so suggested they could retrieve the pertinent information that way. That's when they told me, matter-of-factly, that none of them had a computer or depth gauge, only one had a watch and none had ever even heard of tables, let alone have a clue how to use them. This led to a conversation where they confessed that they simply stayed with the DM and figured all would be good. I should perhaps add that on this day, we dove the Blue Hole and then two other dives. My guess is that their profiles were roughly 145'/40, 100'/50 and 80'/50....

As the discussion progressed, it became apparent that they had absolutely no knowledge of DCS, its symptoms or the seriousness of it. And as if that wasn't enough, the eldest boy (18) then mentioned that his shoulder had hurt at lunch (about 90 minutes after the second dive), so he had gone to Google, self diagnosed "the bends" and developed his own in water treatment... He stayed shallower than the DM on the afternoon dive and stayed as long as he could at 20' at the end of the dive. Amazingly, he was feeling ok!

Anyway, I don't want to derail the OP's thread, but I thought it was important to point out that now, more than ever, a C-card is almost a meaningless piece of plastic.... At least in some cases. Apparently, Juan's Taco Stand and Used Car Emporium was also a PADI 5-Star Facility. And these weren't morons... Dad was a lawyer, Mom was a teacher and the kids were doing well at school. But they had no idea how to avoid killing themselves, and hadn't mentioned to the DM that they lacked computers.

There are some adventure activites, bungee jumping, zip lining, tandem skydiving, parasailing come to mind, where all the details of the adventure and safety precautions have been built in such that a participant can have minimal training and supervision and experience the adventure. Sadly it seems that some people have equated scuba diving with that type of activity and assume the safety details are all worked out for them by whomever is arranging their dive. I think some of the marketing in the sport lends itself to that belief - take a quick class, jump on in and enjoy the fun.

 

[Oldbear]

At what point do you stop blaming the training and put the responsibility on the individual diver? It does not take a ton of reasoning to realize that in order to participate in this sport you will need to be dependent on a life support system. When one is on life support it is a serious matter...in any conditions. To take that lightly and follow a DM blindly is well...not the brightest thing to do. It does not take further training to recognize this, it is common sense. Always look out for #1.

The OP already said that they were new to the sport and has realized that...no sense in beating a dead horse.

Some people pick up on that fact that diving is a self-relying sport, yet often done in pairs or groups, rather fast. But the reality is that most divers do not make this connection immediately and it takes a little bit of time...and experience first. Since childhood we are programed to trust people in positions of trust & authority. So it is reasonible to have such trust in our instructors and DMs. Then there are a group of people who have an incident that propells their realization, similar to what the OP experienced.

I for one would like to thank the OP, Brnt999, for sharing this experience. Hopefully others might learn from thier experience.

~Oldbear~

 

[Scott from LongIsland]

Question for the OP. If the shop that you went to denied you a card. How would you have reacted? Please be honest.