DM blew me off

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Yeah I think that's a great idea. Wonder why it's not done by major agencies?

I can only speak of PADI, since I don't have experience with other OW training. In my area, OW training is broken in to OW1 and OW2. OW1 involves two days of classroom/pool and is usually done over a weekend. OW2 involves two days of open water diving also done over a (different) weekend.

Adding these extra two dives would involve an extra day, and therefore cannot be done over one weekend. My guess is that this is a big reason against such a practice.

If I knew then what I know now, I would have no problem with the extra day or the extra cost of the course, but without the benefit of my future knowledge, the extra day and extra cost would have probably been a deterrent. For this reason, I think it is unlikely for one agency to step up and require this as they would likely lose some business to other agencies because of it...but I am only guessing.
 
We try, if it is feasible, to run the 4th dive of our OW class as an independent dive. The divers obviously have to do a free descent, because that is required, and they must at some point remove and replace their masks, but otherwise, we try to set it up so they plan and execute their own dive, with us shadowing from behind and above, so we aren't very visible. It isn't always possible here to do that, not because the students can't, but because maintaining direct control sometimes requires being so close to people that you can't be hidden, and in addition, in very poor viz, navigation is really challenging. I know, because I sometimes get turned around in very low viz, even in familiar sites!

But I agree that it's very easy for students to finish an OW class and in effect have been trained to be goslings -- all they know is how to follow Mom.
 
We try, if it is feasible, to run the 4th dive of our OW class as an independent dive. The divers obviously have to do a free descent, because that is required, and they must at some point remove and replace their masks, but otherwise, we try to set it up so they plan and execute their own dive, with us shadowing from behind and above, so we aren't very visible. It isn't always possible here to do that, not because the students can't, but because maintaining direct control sometimes requires being so close to people that you can't be hidden, and in addition, in very poor viz, navigation is really challenging. I know, because I sometimes get turned around in very low viz, even in familiar sites!

But I agree that it's very easy for students to finish an OW class and in effect have been trained to be goslings -- all they know is how to follow Mom.

the hybrid model....didn't think of that :)
 
Actually no, I'd say it's nearly an either or situation. Being able to manage a dive (even with ppl more experienced) in cold low viz is probably equivalent to being able to manage a dive with no experienced direction.

One might quibble with the margins but I'm fairly sure out of the back of either you'll get good confident independent divers.
 
I guess I was lucky. I "grew up" in Puget Sound, where there are no DMs to dive with novices, and where, when you dive off a boat, you are truly on your own, because nobody from the boat is even in the water with you. I never conceived the idea that anybody else in the water was responsible for my safety. Maybe, instead of the skills we build in cold, murky water, THAT is the reason dive ops look at PNW divers and know we won't cause any problems?

Same when you show up somewhere and tell people you dive in NJ. After they are done checking out your gear looking for crowbars and hammers, they pretty much stay out of your way.

:d
 
Same when you show up somewhere and tell people you dive in NJ. After they are done checking out your gear looking for crowbars and hammers, they pretty much stay out of your way.

:d

Well I am in Seattle and learned to Dive here...but lived in NJ for 32 years...does that mean I will be checked for crowbars and hammers in the Puget Sound area? ;)
 
If indeed he saw correctly that you were low on air and ignored you, you should at least have reported him/her to the dive op.

Seriously??? You would report the DM for what? This new diver was running low on air. I think that the DMs responsibility at that point is to insure he heads up and surfaces safely, but he (the DM) also has the responsibility of the rest of the group so he can hardly drop everything to tend to this one guy, who was ended a dive normally, albeit early. The Divemaster is a Divemaster... Not a nanny for crying out loud.

I hung up my teaching credentials a few years ago, but I keep reading about people who bought a C-card but really have no friggin' idea how to dive. I just came back from Belize where I crossed paths with a family (Mom, Dad, 2 teenaged boys). They had been certified a year before in Cancun, at I assume, Juan's Discount Car Rentals, Tacos and Scuba Diving Lessons. I say this because that the end of our second day of diving together (same day, same ocean, but no where near them) they were filling in their logs and were debating how deep they had been and so on. I assumed that they, being newbies, perhaps weren't aware of the log function on their computers, so suggested they could retrieve the pertinent information that way. That's when they told me, matter-of-factly, that none of them had a computer or depth gauge, only one had a watch and none had ever even heard of tables, let alone have a clue how to use them. This led to a conversation where they confessed that they simply stayed with the DM and figured all would be good. I should perhaps add that on this day, we dove the Blue Hole and then two other dives. My guess is that their profiles were roughly 145'/40, 100'/50 and 80'/50....

As the discussion progressed, it became apparent that they had absolutely no knowledge of DCS, its symptoms or the seriousness of it. And as if that wasn't enough, the eldest boy (18) then mentioned that his shoulder had hurt at lunch (about 90 minutes after the second dive), so he had gone to Google, self diagnosed "the bends" and developed his own in water treatment... He stayed shallower than the DM on the afternoon dive and stayed as long as he could at 20' at the end of the dive. Amazingly, he was feeling ok!

Anyway, I don't want to derail the OP's thread, but I thought it was important to point out that now, more than ever, a C-card is almost a meaningless piece of plastic.... At least in some cases. Apparently, Juan's Taco Stand and Used Car Emporium was also a PADI 5-Star Facility. And these weren't morons... Dad was a lawyer, Mom was a teacher and the kids were doing well at school. But they had no idea how to avoid killing themselves, and hadn't mentioned to the DM that they lacked computers.
 
On an Al80 :blessing:

Well three of them, but yes. These were all multilevel dives, not rectangular profiles. The first was the Blue Hole in Belize...
 

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