Diving to 200' and Beyond
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Benno, I am curious. We are told she dives to 150 or 200 feet using something along the lines of an 83 cf and a 40 cf pony. What agency's training covers this? I know nothing about diving to such depths, but from what I have read about gas management, I have gotten the impression that no dive training authority today teaches bringing so relatively little gas. Is that incorrect?
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Let's look a little closer at that argument. The OP said:
Now let's do the math.
200' = 61m, 61-57 = 4
250' = 76m, 76-57 = 19
270' = 82m, 82-57 = 25
Keep on hand-waving, but the opinions expressed here by those who think her practice is neither particularly sensible nor in line with current standards aren't expressing an American POV. As you conveniently omitted from my quote, national standards - also here in Europe - may well limit the depths more than indicated by the CMAS guidelines. Remember that CMAS doesn't issue certs, it's the affiliated national diving associations who do that.
@Lorenzoid and @Storker
I don't know what to tell you guys. The OP asked whether what the lady is doing is normal or not in some places and to me it's not unusual. Some CMAS agencies at least did allow 60 m on air... they might have changed it now.
I have to admit that I have done a bunch of dives to and below 60 m on air with a single tank and I would be out of the water within roughly an hour and 50 bar left (10 plus years ago). I know lots of people that did that, even though nobody ever told the students... (which makes me think I should have just shut up about this here to.... and this is probably not the only thread I should have stayed out of).
I even posted a link to a dive shop that officially offers 60m air to CMAS certified people. Just shouldn't do that on one tank, I already said that though. You also should have significant experience and you should know how your body reacts to N2 at depth.
@Storker
Stop throwing in dive deeper then 200', she did not say that, she said she uses trimix too. You keep saying 'here'. Where are you from?
Ironically, both of you guys could be my students, since I would tell the people in an OWD course that it's dangerous to dive deeper than 40m...
I don't know what to tell you guys. The OP asked whether what the lady is doing is normal or not in some places and to me it's not unusual. Some CMAS agencies at least did allow 60 m on air... they might have changed it now.
I have to admit that I have done a bunch of dives to and below 60 m on air with a single tank and I would be out of the water within roughly an hour and 50 bar left (10 plus years ago). I know lots of people that did that, even though nobody ever told the students... (which makes me think I should have just shut up about this here to.... and this is probably not the only thread I should have stayed out of).
I even posted a link to a dive shop that officially offers 60m air to CMAS certified people. Just shouldn't do that on one tank, I already said that though. You also should have significant experience and you should know how your body reacts to N2 at depth.
@Storker
Stop throwing in dive deeper then 200', she did not say that, she said she uses trimix too. You keep saying 'here'. Where are you from?
Ironically, both of you guys could be my students, since I would tell the people in an OWD course that it's dangerous to dive deeper than 40m...
Bob DBF
Contributor
Storker, next time include all the relavent quote:
I understand why many that respond to this thread might disagree with the practices described by the OP, however most of the reasoning used actually ignores the facts in evidence or misrepresents them to support their arguments.
I would not encourage others to dive deep air as it is a tricky business and not to be entered into lightly. To say it shouldn't be done and it cannot be done are two different things.
Bob
In fact we do not know, nor did the OP from what was stated, what gas the woman in question was breathing on that dive.
I understand why many that respond to this thread might disagree with the practices described by the OP, however most of the reasoning used actually ignores the facts in evidence or misrepresents them to support their arguments.
I would not encourage others to dive deep air as it is a tricky business and not to be entered into lightly. To say it shouldn't be done and it cannot be done are two different things.
Bob
dumpsterDiver
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@drrich2 - I did ask her what she saw down there that kept her going back. She said the sponges were larger, the coral was "more magnificent", and "less ruined by pollution". She also said she saw marine animals not seen frequently in the "shallow" water (meaning anything less than 130'-150' ). Before my husband & I turned around, we looked down, & we could see the top of a wall below us (and the end of the reef we were swimming, which others told us begins at about 130-150' deep). She said the "most beautiful" part begins at the top of that wall & continues "even more so" as you drop down to over 200'. No one has mentioned that she has ever brought a camera with her.
To talk to, she is quite "old school" in that she said "gadgets are for those who don't know what they are doing", and that the dive training today is "too simple! Anyone could pass". Regarding new technology, she said she decided purchasing a dive computer when they became available, was just prudent.
She also said she considers herself a "caretaker" of the sea, in that she picks up debris when/where she finds it, and fans silt off the largest sponges as she swims by "so they can breathe".
When she certified in France "many, many years ago", she said she was the only woman, at that time. She said the instructors didn't think she was capable of diving (as a woman), so she had to prove herself able. She said they watched her more closely, certain she would fail. @dumpsterDiver, she told us she dives trimix. I assumed the pony had air as the long safety/travel bottle, but I didn't ask that question. (I had already asked so many). And she has a lilting voice like a canary.
think the deep air question was asked and answered a long time ago.. but the off topic ranting went on and on..
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Bennno,
You are certainly one of a kind... I appreciate you and your comments.
I have made many dives over 150 and a number in the 200 and 200 plus range. The early American manuals such as Spaco and Renes did not have the decompression charts of today, rather a line chart of no decompression diving....that is what we followed....to the bottom and hopefully made a round trip.
Nitrogen narcosis was unknown and unnamed until the publication of JYCs Silent World in 1953...In the LACo manual UW Recreation of 1954 the term Martinis Law was introduced ....at that time we began to understand the effects and danger of deep diving .
Yes I lost a few dive buddys to deep diving....June 4,1960 my room mate lost his life at 210 feet at Catalina.
Yes I have dove rebreathers ...I made one in 1948 after seeing Hans Hass's "Under the red sea" I almost bought the farm with that bubbless machine
A wee bit of dive history regarding deep diving in 1960 at the "Banks."
In 1960 no boat would charter to the banks -- too strong currents, too much boat traffic, too many sharks, too deep and open ocean--except Dick Petter and his new boat the Outrider..So away we went
What a difference 56 years makes......
"I was the President of the Sea Sabres dive club in 1959-60. The previous President Bob Ruethford, who had founded the Aquatic Center in Newport Beach, had seen hunks of purple coral (allopura California) brought in by commercial abalone divers. Over a few drinks Bob discovered they found it at a place called Farnsworth banks. Selected member of the Sea Sabres and the scientific community at Kirkoff marine institute in Corona Del Mar consequently made a number of trips to the banks on the private boat called the "Aqua Duck."
Bob, a true diving pioneer who is famous for many first in diving (see www.legendsof diving: Sea sabres signaling system) who relished publicity, published an article in Skin Diver magazine in June 1960 "California divers discover Rare purple coral' which was fine but his topside pictures clearly showed Ben Weston Point in the background. That same month Jake Jacobs the then head diver at Marine Land of the Pacific published "Marine land diver" (--Dodd, Meade & company NYC, LCC 60-9655 --I have an inscribed copy) in which Jake also discusses the purple coral of Farnsworth -- So the secret of Farnsworth was out.
As the president of the then undisputed most active dive club in all of SoCal and possibly the US I made the decision to dive " Farnsworth banks". I contacted the dive boat captains at that time, all refused to charter to Farnsworth as if it was some foreign or strange exotic place. Finally Dick Peters, who owned the newest dive charter boat of the fleet, the 42 foot "Out Rider " agreed to a charter at $7.00 per person but with the stipulation "only in the winter when there are no boats fishing there and the water will be calm" (FYI the Outrider sunk about 1967 when returning from a trip to Catalina)
In early December 1960 we loaded the boat. It had no compressor - as many as three- four or even five tanks per person was stashed all over the boat. The water was like glass and the trip over and back was like riding on silk.
Using Ben Weston Point as a reference and relying on the recently developed depth finder Captain Peters made numerous runs in all directions across the banks trying to locate a pinnacle.
Finally a suitable pinnacle was located and the anchor was dropped--right in the middle of a school of hungry welcoming sharks. "The are only blues, lets dive! " some one shouted. With only a nano second of hesitation on that bright sunny day in December 1960, Ed Mossbrooke (who now lives in Fountain Valley) became the first recreational diver to dive the Banks from a charter boat, immediately followed by the rest of the divers.
I was using the then very popular "Orange County twin 44s." Harry was using surplus USN single aluminum 90s, the others were using every thing from a single 70 to twin 72s. All breathed from a variety of double hose regulators, most used the recently introduced wet suits which were home made, although the SPG had been introduced it was considered unreliable and was seldom used, and of course floatation devices were still fifteen years in the future. At that time we were diving with the state of the art equipment but today we would be considered "antique, retro or old school."
It was a different world at that time with no thought for the future or the conservation of the precious natural resources. We came for hunks of the famous purple coral of Farnsworth banks and we harvested hunks of purple coral. In addition most harvested a limit of ten scallops, and the then limit of ten bugs, with Harry Vetter getting the largest at 13+ pounds. I some how in my four dives that day managed also to spear a rather "large fish," which because we were not equipped for large fish took some doing to horse it on the boat.
All too soon it was all over, the divers began returning to the Outrider, storing their equipment, game and hunks of purple coral. All that is but, Norma lee Smith who decided to decompress on the bow line and attracted every curious and hopefully not hungry shark from miles around investigate this morsel. Norma's only defense was to exhale copious amount of rapidly diminishing supply of air. She slowly with great caution made her way to the stern of the boat where she rapidly ascended thrust out her hands and was unceremoniously but also rapidly pulled over the gunnel onto the deck of the Outrider...So ended the first recreational dive trip to Farnsworth.
So many adventures, so many stories...
Dr. Samuel Miller,
LA CO UW Instructor
NAUI instructor #27
PADI instructor
(and most of the rest of the instructor alphabet)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are certainly one of a kind... I appreciate you and your comments.
I have made many dives over 150 and a number in the 200 and 200 plus range. The early American manuals such as Spaco and Renes did not have the decompression charts of today, rather a line chart of no decompression diving....that is what we followed....to the bottom and hopefully made a round trip.
Nitrogen narcosis was unknown and unnamed until the publication of JYCs Silent World in 1953...In the LACo manual UW Recreation of 1954 the term Martinis Law was introduced ....at that time we began to understand the effects and danger of deep diving .
Yes I lost a few dive buddys to deep diving....June 4,1960 my room mate lost his life at 210 feet at Catalina.
Yes I have dove rebreathers ...I made one in 1948 after seeing Hans Hass's "Under the red sea" I almost bought the farm with that bubbless machine
A wee bit of dive history regarding deep diving in 1960 at the "Banks."
In 1960 no boat would charter to the banks -- too strong currents, too much boat traffic, too many sharks, too deep and open ocean--except Dick Petter and his new boat the Outrider..So away we went
What a difference 56 years makes......
"I was the President of the Sea Sabres dive club in 1959-60. The previous President Bob Ruethford, who had founded the Aquatic Center in Newport Beach, had seen hunks of purple coral (allopura California) brought in by commercial abalone divers. Over a few drinks Bob discovered they found it at a place called Farnsworth banks. Selected member of the Sea Sabres and the scientific community at Kirkoff marine institute in Corona Del Mar consequently made a number of trips to the banks on the private boat called the "Aqua Duck."
Bob, a true diving pioneer who is famous for many first in diving (see www.legendsof diving: Sea sabres signaling system) who relished publicity, published an article in Skin Diver magazine in June 1960 "California divers discover Rare purple coral' which was fine but his topside pictures clearly showed Ben Weston Point in the background. That same month Jake Jacobs the then head diver at Marine Land of the Pacific published "Marine land diver" (--Dodd, Meade & company NYC, LCC 60-9655 --I have an inscribed copy) in which Jake also discusses the purple coral of Farnsworth -- So the secret of Farnsworth was out.
As the president of the then undisputed most active dive club in all of SoCal and possibly the US I made the decision to dive " Farnsworth banks". I contacted the dive boat captains at that time, all refused to charter to Farnsworth as if it was some foreign or strange exotic place. Finally Dick Peters, who owned the newest dive charter boat of the fleet, the 42 foot "Out Rider " agreed to a charter at $7.00 per person but with the stipulation "only in the winter when there are no boats fishing there and the water will be calm" (FYI the Outrider sunk about 1967 when returning from a trip to Catalina)
In early December 1960 we loaded the boat. It had no compressor - as many as three- four or even five tanks per person was stashed all over the boat. The water was like glass and the trip over and back was like riding on silk.
Using Ben Weston Point as a reference and relying on the recently developed depth finder Captain Peters made numerous runs in all directions across the banks trying to locate a pinnacle.
Finally a suitable pinnacle was located and the anchor was dropped--right in the middle of a school of hungry welcoming sharks. "The are only blues, lets dive! " some one shouted. With only a nano second of hesitation on that bright sunny day in December 1960, Ed Mossbrooke (who now lives in Fountain Valley) became the first recreational diver to dive the Banks from a charter boat, immediately followed by the rest of the divers.
I was using the then very popular "Orange County twin 44s." Harry was using surplus USN single aluminum 90s, the others were using every thing from a single 70 to twin 72s. All breathed from a variety of double hose regulators, most used the recently introduced wet suits which were home made, although the SPG had been introduced it was considered unreliable and was seldom used, and of course floatation devices were still fifteen years in the future. At that time we were diving with the state of the art equipment but today we would be considered "antique, retro or old school."
It was a different world at that time with no thought for the future or the conservation of the precious natural resources. We came for hunks of the famous purple coral of Farnsworth banks and we harvested hunks of purple coral. In addition most harvested a limit of ten scallops, and the then limit of ten bugs, with Harry Vetter getting the largest at 13+ pounds. I some how in my four dives that day managed also to spear a rather "large fish," which because we were not equipped for large fish took some doing to horse it on the boat.
All too soon it was all over, the divers began returning to the Outrider, storing their equipment, game and hunks of purple coral. All that is but, Norma lee Smith who decided to decompress on the bow line and attracted every curious and hopefully not hungry shark from miles around investigate this morsel. Norma's only defense was to exhale copious amount of rapidly diminishing supply of air. She slowly with great caution made her way to the stern of the boat where she rapidly ascended thrust out her hands and was unceremoniously but also rapidly pulled over the gunnel onto the deck of the Outrider...So ended the first recreational dive trip to Farnsworth.
So many adventures, so many stories...
Dr. Samuel Miller,
LA CO UW Instructor
NAUI instructor #27
PADI instructor
(and most of the rest of the instructor alphabet)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
She is:
1) French
2) Certified under CMAS
3) Older
Because of those three things I don't think she is very extraordinary, she's more typical to me. Lot more people like her in the world than you'd suspect. In my experience - The French Dive Deep, especially someone who grew up in her time when diving deep was tremendously more common than today, especially since you is CMAS certified which includes deeper diving in it's normal certification.
I don't think she regards herself as doing anything out of the ordinary for who she is and the diving experience she has. Barring a medical incident she likely has a lot of dives ahead of her.
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