Diving to 200' and Beyond

[Lorenzoid]

LOL.I post a video of a fat, old guy using less than half a tank on a 190 ft dive which clearly shows that the dive lasted more than a few minutes. Yet even after this; you STILL "can't imagine" a dive longer than a few minutes?

I don't know what your video shows, but if you tell me you dive to 190 feet and stay for X minutes, and you don't have much more gas than what we're told this French lady had, I believe you. Instead of playing games, why not just tell me that with an 83 cf and 40 cf tank, a person could conceivably get X minutes at 200 feet? So, plugging it into Multi Deco shows me it's do-able. So X might be as long as 10 or 15 minutes. No margin for error, of course, but then nobody's saying this kind of diving is not without increased risk.

AND you want to argue that beauty can not be appreciated in a few minutes? How long do you think the people who summit Mount Everest "hang out" before they head down? Is their short time on the summit inadequate to take in the scene? Would you criticize them as well for not staying long enough?

I did not "argue that beauty can not be appreciated in a few minutes." I observed that all the agencies appear to take the position that the beauty isn't worth the risk for most divers to do bounce dives. They don't advocate it. And I don't think most divers do this kind of diving.

With your Everest analogy, you make my point for me. People don't summit Everest for the beauty. I'm sure it's beautiful, but people summit Everest as a feat. I suspect that to the extent there is a consensus in the climbing community about what is "normal," summiting Everest is not considered normal. It would not be considered normal for "advanced climbers" (the OP asked about "advanced divers"). Rather, it's way beyond normal for even most advanced climbers. The dive community, on the other hand, does not encourage divers to accomplish feats. If you're diving to set personal records, that's beyond the norm. Some people do so, and everyone knows some people do so, but it's not the norm. You yourself apparently spearfish, so maybe you are doing something beyond the norm that takes you to such depths on a small tank. I'm sure there are all kinds of niches in diving. Spearfishing, exploration, record-setting, etc. All fine. But that's what they are--niches. We're told the French lady does these dives to see the beauty--nothing about spearfishing. The OP wanted to know if this lady's diving was normal anywhere in the world today for advanced divers. Even if she is spending 10 or 15 minutes down there, I still suspect it's not normal even for an advanced diver. No advanced diving course advocates diving like this.

 

[packrat12]

The sad bit is, you actually believe this!

Actually I thing the sad bit is it does not sound like you have kept up on the effects of various gases involved with diving, especially the narcotic effects of CO2. The gas solubility of CO2 is approx 25 times more than N2. As a result, it is FAR more narcotic to a diver. As I stated, my air dive was easy, it was a hot drop with no efforts. My trimix was a downline with a strong current and lots of efforts at the beginning. As a result of this, my CO2 was through the roof. I am a firm believer that CO2 IS the major component of most "narc'd" divers.

I have dove long enough to know what the narcosis effects on me are. I know what I was having difficulty with when on trimix that was not causing issues when on air. It is not very hard to state that I was far less "narc'd" on air for those dives.

To be better informed, here is a link to a very good study to read on lipid solubility. You really should read it. By the way, I would look at the solubility of He vs N2 vs CO2 while you are looking at this. The title is:

CARBON DIOXIDE, NARCOSIS,
AND DIVING
BY JOHNNY E. BRIAN JR., M.D.

http://tecvault.t101.ro/Carbon dioxide, narcosi and diving.pdf

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I don't know what your video shows, but if you tell me you dive to 190 feet and stay for X minutes, and you don't have much more gas than what we're told this French lady had, I believe you. Instead of playing games, why not just tell me that with an 83 cf and 40 cf tank, a person could conceivably get X minutes at 200 feet? So, plugging it into Multi Deco shows me it's do-able. So X might be as long as 10 or 15 minutes. No margin for error, of course, but then nobody's saying this kind of diving is not without increased risk.



I did not "argue that beauty can not be appreciated in a few minutes." I observed that all the agencies appear to take the position that the beauty isn't worth the risk for most divers to do bounce dives. They don't advocate it. And I don't think most divers do this kind of diving.

With your Everest analogy, you make my point for me. People don't summit Everest for the beauty. I'm sure it's beautiful, but people summit Everest as a feat. I suspect that to the extent there is a consensus in the climbing community about what is "normal," summiting Everest is not considered normal. It would not be considered normal for "advanced climbers" (the OP asked about "advanced divers"). Rather, it's way beyond normal for even most advanced climbers. The dive community, on the other hand, does not encourage divers to accomplish feats. If you're diving to set personal records, that's beyond the norm. Some people do so, and everyone knows some people do so, but it's not the norm. You yourself apparently spearfish, so maybe you are doing something beyond the norm that takes you to such depths on a small tank. I'm sure there are all kinds of niches in diving. Spearfishing, exploration, record-setting, etc. All fine. But that's what they are--niches. We're told the French lady does these dives to see the beauty--nothing about spearfishing. The OP wanted to know if this lady's diving was normal anywhere in the world today for advanced divers. Even if she is spending 10 or 15 minutes down there, I still suspect it's not normal even for an advanced diver. No advanced diving course advocates diving like this.

I'm not playing games. I don't know how long she can stay at depth - i don't have any of those computer programs to figure out deco.

I agree that training agencies probably would not be supportive of this type of diving and I doubt there are very many old ladies doing dives like this- or we wouldn't be talking about it.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I was about to try a different approach and just ask you how you would answer the OP's question: "would this intrepid & fascinating woman be considered a 'normal' advanced diver in certain parts of the world"? But given your last post I suspect your answer would be "no." I didn't read many of the comments in the middle of this thread--it got tedious with too many technical details for me--so for all I know you answered this long ago.

I'm not playing games. I don't know how long she can stay at depth - i don't have any of those computer programs to figure out deco.

I agree that training agencies probably would not be supportive of this type of diving and I doubt there are very many old ladies doing dives like this- or we wouldn't be talking about it.

 

[The Chairman]

"would this intrepid & fascinating woman be considered a 'normal' advanced diver in certain parts of the world"?

A braggart, maybe? A FIGJAM? She's got the "I'm special" attitude with the reference to "baby dives". These people usually bore me to tears. I would rather wash my hair.

 

[oya]

What is the difference between us accepting the elevated risk of using a CCR and the OP accepting an elevated risk for their dive? Are we not all setting a personal level of accepted risk that is different from others? How can I, as a CCR diver, judge another's accepted risk level and call them a dinosaur? I think it is hypocritical at the least!

This post got me thinking about a core concept that doesn't seem to have been addressed throughout this thread (forgive me if I missed it).

CCR classes are (or at least bloody well should be) pretty demanding and to be a proficient CCR diver or tech diver/cave diver/trimix diver/etc one needs discipline and frequent practice of both typical diving skills and emergency skills. With the accepted risk there is a responsibility to stay proficient. Do CCR divers die... yes, but when it comes down to it, they die at roughly the same overall rate as people walking down the street, sometimes from poor judgement such as ignoring PO2 sometimes from something beyond their control like an undiagnosed cardiac issue.

Now: when someone flies in the face of convention and goes diving WAAY beyond recreational limits without training (or, perhaps, "self-trained"), without appropriate equipment, and without following the procedures that have been established through accident analysis that person isn't simply putting themselves at risk. They are being an inconsiderate and selfish douche.

Because when the law of averages catches up with them... when their normalization of deviance finally bites them and they don't come back to the boat as scheduled... THEN someone has to go and get them. Perhaps the people assigned to the recovery don't have the training/gear/practice to deal with the types of depths or circumstances the braggart got themselves into? Perhaps the recovery doesn't go well. Perhaps it does go well and quickly and then the diver is on deck getting chest compressions administered for 1/2 an hour and is pronounced dead at the hospital anyway.

This person also puts everyone else on the boat in the position of having to deal with their crummy decisions, too. And people who had breakfast with them that morning have to spend the rest of their lives wondering, "If only I'd said something to them, maybe I could have saved their life?" It's a s*!t position to be in.

My wife and I have had long conversations about what should and will happen if I die on a rebreather or in a cave. I have this conversation with dive buddies and potential dive buddies. It's part of the assumed risk at a certain level.

For someone to cavalierly come back from a 200 foot dive where they put the entire boat at risk of psychological trauma and physical danger, then refer so dismissively to people on vacation and doing appropriate levels of diving, my thoughts are pretty straightforward...
F@*K that lady.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

This post got me thinking about a core concept that doesn't seem to have been addressed throughout this thread (forgive me if I missed it).

CCR classes are (or at least bloody well should be) pretty demanding and to be a proficient CCR diver or tech diver/cave diver/trimix diver/etc one needs discipline and frequent practice of both typical diving skills and emergency skills. With the accepted risk there is a responsibility to stay proficient. Do CCR divers die... yes, but when it comes down to it, they die at roughly the same overall rate as people walking down the street, sometimes from poor judgement such as ignoring PO2 sometimes from something beyond their control like an undiagnosed cardiac issue.

Now: when someone flies in the face of convention and goes diving WAAY beyond recreational limits without training (or, perhaps, "self-trained"), without appropriate equipment, and without following the procedures that have been established through accident analysis that person isn't simply putting themselves at risk. They are being an inconsiderate and selfish douche.

Because when the law of averages catches up with them... when their normalization of deviance finally bites them and they don't come back to the boat as scheduled... THEN someone has to go and get them. Perhaps the people assigned to the recovery don't have the training/gear/practice to deal with the types of depths or circumstances the braggart got themselves into? Perhaps the recovery doesn't go well. Perhaps it does go well and quickly and then the diver is on deck getting chest compressions administered for 1/2 an hour and is pronounced dead at the hospital anyway.

This person also puts everyone else on the boat in the position of having to deal with their crummy decisions, too. And people who had breakfast with them that morning have to spend the rest of their lives wondering, "If only I'd said something to them, maybe I could have saved their life?" It's a s*!t position to be in.

My wife and I have had long conversations about what should and will happen if I die on a rebreather or in a cave. I have this conversation with dive buddies and potential dive buddies. It's part of the assumed risk at a certain level.

For someone to just come back from a 200 foot dive where they put the entire boat at risk of psychological trauma and physical danger, my thoughts are pretty straightforward...
F@*K that lady.

Yeah. She can't be talking about her deep solo dive...now if she would brag about how great her trim is in 8 ft of water --- that would be GREAT!!!

 

[Bennno]

Do CCR divers die... yes, but when it comes down to it, they die at roughly the same overall rate as people walking down the street,

You gotta be kidding. What are you basing this on?

 

[The Chairman]

now if she would brag about how great her trim is in 8 ft of water

I would much rather have someone blather on about a skill that means something than someone just bragging how they endanger themselves while calling themselves "safe".

 

[oya]

You gotta be kidding. What are you basing this on?

DAN recently released their "annual" report.
Interestingly, there's nothing in it about how rebreathers make people instantly drop dead.