Diving Nitrox to increase safety AND bottom time!

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The implicit... I guess I'll just let you type for me then since you know me so well. It was meant as more of a joke then a pissing contest. Then again you cant get context out of text. Unless you make it up in your head.

Read your own signature.
My mistake then. What did you mean to imply when you said, "You have far more posting experience then l."? The joke is escaping me. I'm usually pretty attuned to sarcasm, so I thought it was a sarcastic aspersion upon his qualifications to challenge your opinion. But I look forward to your explanation.
 
No, nor did I imply it. But please quote me and show me what you misinterpreted. I'll be happy to clarify or apologize, as the case may be.

My appology, I got you mixed up with someone else. :D
 
See this is what I'm not getting. Different people have told me they have better outcomes when diving with nitrox ie. no headaches, less tired, more alert etc... So regardless of how it 'feels' at the time is it not beneficial to try it to see what effects (if any) it has on you as an individual rather than just studying it in the classroom?

Although it is not scientifically proven, I have found that to be true for me. But it is not the kind of thing I can experience with one dive. It is when I do multiple, somewhat challenging dives over multiple days that I believe I come out feeling less tired by diving nitrox. One or two dives or even multiple days of very mild dives leaves me feeling no different whether it be air or nirtox.

There is good reason most (or is it all) training agencies have dropped the requirement for nitrox dives during nitrox certification training. If they were able to market a need for such dives, they would have kept the requirement. But once one agency recognized that dives were not required and was able to significantly lower their prices, others needed to follow suit or lose market share.
 
I have been teaching Enriched Air Nitrox ( EAN ) since 1995. I started teaching the Technical Diving International ( TDI ) course. Two dives were required.

The actually " skill " under water while diving was to breathe. Yes the student had to stay w/in the Max Operating Depth ( MOD ).

In the late 90's, Scuba Diving International (SDI) was spawned from TDI. If my memory serves me correctly, the SDI course, computer nitrox diver, did not require dives.

The good news was we were able to conduct training in the winter and not have to go thru the ice to do it. Then the cert. EAN diver could go to the tropics and actually dive EAN. Moreover, they could have the benefits of diving EAN.

Yes, if we can have our Open Water ( OW ) students or Advanced students dive EAN while they are doing their OW or advanced dives we do ( provided that they have done their EAN training above water ).

Now we have an OW site that we can do our training dives in the winter. The water is 90+ degrees year round. The problem is the hot spring is a 6 hr and 6 minute drive.

Isn't it better to have students do above water training as apposed to no training at all?

Again, what is the " diving skill requirement " for EAN ( nitrox ) - to breathe.
 
Although it is not scientifically proven, I have found that to be true for me. But it is not the kind of thing I can experience with one dive. It is when I do multiple, somewhat challenging dives over multiple days that I believe I come out feeling less tired by diving nitrox. One or two dives or even multiple days of very mild dives leaves me feeling no different whether it be air or nirtox.

There is good reason most (or is it all) training agencies have dropped the requirement for nitrox dives during nitrox certification training. If they were able to market a need for such dives, they would have kept the requirement. But once one agency recognized that dives were not required and was able to significantly lower their prices, others needed to follow suit or lose market share.

I agree with both statements here. I most definitely can tell a difference in my post-dive fatigue/general feeling with NITROX vs air. I also agree with the lack of a discernible need for a dive in a NITROX course. I understand and agree that it is probably helpful for someone new to NITROX diving to go ahead and get a dive with their instructor, but I don't think it is necessary. The biggest part of diving with NITROX is the planning.


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PADI Rescue/DM 09100Z7445
Dr Dive/Wet Dream/Sea Cobra/Y-Knot

Diving is my passion...I live to dive!
 
I AM in the group of 'older' divers and was the reason I got N certified. I feel no difference whatsoever in the post dive 'bounce' when using N. Doesnt taste any difference and I don't feel any better/worse after. In fact, It may just not be worth the hassle, doing the whole analyzing thing over seas. Thinking of just using Air, not worth the hassle!
 
Most of my EAN students do 10+ dives with me after their EAN course.

Is this better than no EAN dives? Yes.

Most of my OW students do 10+ dives w/ me after their OW course.

Is this better than just the 4 OW dives? Of course.

Especially, if it is in a beautiful tropical setting w/ fantastic diving.

Here we come WAKATOBI in a few weeks. All of our divers will be diving Nitrox on all dives.

The recompression chamber is a long way.
 
Having recently completed an EAN course, I have the book, I have the DVD, I spent time with an instructor going over the fundamentals and the use of a computer and tables for planning a dive, testing tanks with 3 different analyzers and at least 2 hours of discussion. It was about 2 weeks from completion of the course until I got a chance to dive breathing Nitrox (EAN32). My experience is that using nitrox is not a 1 dive thing, Nitrox to me appears to help with fatigue but isn't noticed after 1 dive but a series of dives. Does that mean the certification should require multiple dives? I see where others say it doesn't change anything for them. I am of the opinion that having to complete a dive after having taken the course has no practical value and would only add to the cost of the course.
 
My mistake then. What did you mean to imply when you said, "You have far more posting experience then l."? The joke is escaping me. I'm usually pretty attuned to sarcasm, so I thought it was a sarcastic aspersion upon his qualifications to challenge your opinion. But I look forward to your explanation.

My version of the implication was that he seemed have more time to talk about it then I. Since I teach, run a dive shop and manufacture scuba diving components and really didn't have time to keep talking about the effects of EANx at the moment- or simply tired of talking about it. I figured no matter what I said the end result would be the same. I will only argue or debate to a point ~fjpatrum seems to do a lot more talking then diving. I merely pointed that out in my own way. Call it what you want, but I wasn't thumping my chest, its to hard and I wouldn't want to hurt my hands lol. That was a joke... Posting numbers have no relevance to dive experience which could also be implied by what I said. Its all in how you turn text to context, and starts more arguments then needed. My apologies if any actual offense was taken.
 
I should just drop this, but I can't help myself. Could you explain the practical difference between trying nitrox during a course, or after the course? Let's say you get certified online, and then, on your next dive, you dive nitrox! How would that be different from trying it during your course?

If you think the demonstration of testing procedures and the in-person classroom instruction would be valuable to you, I totally understand that. Why is breathing nitrox during the course valuable?

I'm wondering the same thing. Once my dad showed me how to fill up the family car, I knew that which was needed to pump gas. Our next car needed premium fuel but I didn't need to do a dry run at the service station to know how to fill 'er up with 91 octane.

Same hoses, same gas station, same processes during the fill up - the only change in procedure was before the actual pumping (pressing 'Premium' instead of 'Regular').




m.

---------- Post Merged at 11:12 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:56 AM ----------

Statements like this is why I've come to be so detached from the formal instruction model of learning. Professionals making decisions based upon whimsy. Why not teach students all the facts and let them decide how they will use the gas.

EAN reduces the amount of N you uptake. That is a fact. This can either be used to extend BT (which negates the DCS safety buffer) or to provide a DCS safety buffer. That is a fact.

or as a hybrid of the two as the OP stated, though I've never heard of anyone locally doing that.

{snip}

I would argue that virtually EVERY nitrox diver does that beginning the very moment after they hit their NDL-air time. If bottom time is less than the NDL-air limit then it doesn't apply, but once you've exceeded that point you've now 'extended your bottom time'. Between that moment and the moment you ongas the same nitrogen that you'd have had, on air, at the NDL-air limit, you've both extended your bottom time AND increased safety.

My intent in my OP was to mythbust the common notion that 'Nitrox can either increase bottom time or safety, not both' and I put forth my reasons for thinking that notion was incorrect. I think my argument still stands - more bottom time and less nitrogen absorption happen on many nitrox dives that exceed the NDL-air limit. Myth: Busted!


ON another note, I'm taking all this in from the perspective of someone who's got all of 40ish dives under his belt and hasn't sniffed a whiff of nitrox. My diving comes in clustered spurts - 20 dives in 6 days in Belize followed by a dry spell of a year, 15 dives in 4 days in the Caymans, six months of dry dock, so I'm not carrying a whole lot of experience here. I've been able to get a lot of good information and appreciate the differing perspectives that have been brought up. I've learned as much from the posters who I don't fully agree with as I did from those whom I'm fully on board with. To all who have contributed, I thank you.

Who knows? In ten years I might be telling some fresh crop of new divers how back in the old days it was said that nitrox was for either increasing bottom time or safety but not both - but no one thinks that any more. Just like the old-school teachings that dictated deep dives first, shallow dives later.


Thx all!



m.
 

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