Diving and Epilepsy

[landlocked]

Originally posted by wingflyer152
Stein,

Exactly who are you to give PROFESSIONAL advice about diving?..... Sorry for the attitude, ..... You saying scuba diving is a right and not a privilege, this is exactly what I am talking about people trying to make diving sound "elite.".... The day you are brought to your knees by something that you cannot control, the day that you wake up and cannot drive, realizing that your life dream of being a pilot that you have attained has been taken from you and you will never get it back, when that day happens to you then, one day you can tell me about what is a privilege and what is a responsibility...... Wingflyer152

Soap box warning!! :tonguewag:
This post has bothered me for serveral days. I think that I might like to address why. First, my qualifications. I am the father of an epileptic daughter, now age 22 and a diabetic son (type 1) now age 18. Of the two illnessess, epilepsy is by far the worst in terms of lifestyle and coping with the illness emotionally. Wingflyer, my heart goes out to you. I am amazed by the way that you have confronted and in a way conquered the problems that life has handed you. Would I take my daughter diving with the accomodations that you mentioned? Yes, but then I am her father, I understand her illness and I don't mind going out on a limb for my child. That is what parents do. With that said, I would have to say that if either of these two children of mine (or any of the other 4 healthy children) displayed as much attitude or self pity has this post indicates, I would have kicked their respective butts! :spank: (Figuratively speaking of course.) It is my opinion, you see, that not only is diving a privilege but life itself is a privilege. I am 49 years old and have yet to meet anyone who has had an easy life. Most people fail to acheive their dreams. Most people are "brought to their knees by something that they cannot control." Often this comes by the decisions of an unfair boss. Sometimes by starting to drink socially with the guys while you are young only to realize 30 years later that you were predisposed to alcoholism. Sometimes a persons entire life becomes a daily struggle to overcome anxieties brought on by early childhood abuse. EVERYONE has their problems. Life is not easy for ANYONE. Not even for dentists.

I appreciate your struggle with certification agencies who appear non-supportive to you. Is that really any different than the struggle that all college students face in dealing with the beauracray of general ed requirements? By all means continue the struggle! Perhaps, a little more wisdom and empathy in dealing with others will allow you to be victorious in greater battles yet to come. Joy in life comes when we learn to be greatfull for the struggles. You definately have your struggles and you are definately being successful in dealing with them. Allow others the right to struggle also. Life is a "privilege." You have the "right" to the struggle.

 

[Laurence Stein DDS]

I was wondering when you would reply. FYI, the ADA summary is not from me nor is it biased. It appears at the previously enclosed website listed.

I want to thank you for acknowledging my apology for an inappropriate figure of speach. I hope you received my private apology.

Part of one of my replys was the fact that as a professional, I cannot have a patient sign away sign away my liability. This is true for doctors and any other person or business that provides a service which as some form of liablility associated with that service.

You wanting or insisting that PADI, NAUI or other certifying agencies have no right or at least reason to decline training for certain medical conditions is based upon this premise. Any doctor signing off as fit to dive for a person with epilepsy or other contraindicated condition, takes full responsiblity and LIABILITY for that decision.

It might not be fair to you but that's the way the game is played. Failure to do so would result in lawsuits that would put all those with a liability issue at great financial risk. BTW, this is not a matter of CYA. Legal action is a very real prospect in this day and age. There is no instructor, doctor, agency etc., who wants to get tangled in a situation like this.

I would love to tell you that it's ok for you to scuba dive. You certainly may do anything your little heart desires even if it is distructive. Just don't expect that others, no matter how empathetic, will just go along with the idea.

I think the posted messages also point to a pervasive feeling that it wonderful that you have overcome your disability but no one feels what you do is safe and you may even jepordize innocent third parties with your actions.

Go ahead and dive. However, should you have an emergency, and another person is injured or killed in the process, you or your family can certainly expect a lawsuit for a wrongful death. This system works both ways.

Laurence Stein DDS

 

[wingflyer152]

Stein,

Luckily, to escape the liability section of training and diving for epileptics, most of us epileptic divers have adopted the "no ask no tell" policy. I take my medic alert bracelet off whenever I go into a dive shop, and I choose not to let them no of my disability. I have sucessfully doone it with this post. You all dont know who I am, I will even tell you where I am, I am in Knoxville, TN but there is nothing you can do about it because diving is a big sport here. There are many divers who are also pilots here in the Knoxville area. Would a judge or jury who hears that the death of an epileptic diver was caused by the negligence of a instructor that didnt even know of the disability believe it? NO. I studied criminal justice in college with a few classes with an emphasis on law and this kind of liability. It is absolutely absurd to think that I am putting someone else's life on the line while i am diving......I keep telling you people that I have petit mal seizures not the convulsive kind, just the blacking out kind. I simply black out and sit there.

 

[devilfish]

Wingflyer152,
You may be correct that by hiding a contraindicative condition for diving, the Instructor and who ever is involved may not be found negligent. However there would be a law suit for sure. Majority of lawsuits are settled out of court and large amount of sums are paid out, regardless. Because it is cheaper to sattle than to defend. Very seldom a scuba lawsuit goes the distance. In that case the insurance company might turn around and find the individual who concealed the condition negligent and sue for damages. There goes the plaintiffs family financial security. In all cases of a diving lawsuit, somebody always gets hurt besides the victim.
I'm not telling what one should do, but these are the facts.

 

[wingflyer152]

"There goes the plaintiffs family financial security."

all of my family's financial securities are locked up in a family limited partnership which is one of if not the hardest thing on earth to sue into. It is nearly impossible to win a suit trying to take something from a limited partnership as one person named a plaintiff and that person being part of a limited partnership It is all of the financial ownings of a family all put together so if one were to kill somebody drunk driving it would be taking away from the innocent family members. One person doesn't really own anything, they put it into the partnership, but they have a vote in any decision made in that partnership in case a sibling tries to swindle him or her. You can't take what someone has because they do not legally own their house, their car, or their business......eat that. ;-0

 

[Laurence Stein DDS]

wingflyer152--call me Larry...

I really do understand where you're coming from. I realize that you have had people all your life trying to ram their rules and opinions down your throat. These people are not wrong in trying and you are not wrong in feeling frustrated.

I can tell you that as a member of a medical profession, and more generally, any service provider or profession treads on very thin ice when dealing with circumstances like yours.

Devilfish is right--covering up your condition to avoid subjecting others to potential liability poses two problems. First, if there is going to be a law suit by the family, it will happen. If it comes out that you covered up the truth, then the insurance company will come after you and will probably still manage to settle with innocent third parties.

If you're interested, I have witnessed a petit mal seizure during practice. It was quite puzzling--the patient would'nt respond to spoken questions. Their eyes were open but they persisted in repetitive actions--attempting to get out of a chair that was not restricting their movement. The whole thing took about 45 seconds. In that time though, there was no way to communicate with that patient.

The patient had to inform me that he had had a seizure. Retrospectively, I felt rather helpless. A non-responding, seemingly awake patient was puzzling. This patient failed to report their condition on their medical history. I also felt stupid that I hadn't picked up the diagnosis--but it happened too quickly to run all the possiblities through my mind.

Some of the symptoms exhibited by this patient would have also been consistent with a TIA or stroke. I have had a patient experience a stroke at the office--I left the room to polish his denture and when I returned, he was conscious but non-responsive to verbal commands. I had given the patient no medications and it took a few minutes to realize what MAY have happened. 15 minutes later, he was talking to my staff at the desk like nothing happened. 3 hours later he had a full blown stroke. This patient NEVER complained of a blinding headache or lost consciousness.

This is why it is so important for us to have a proper medical history.

Anyway, please just be careful. I know you enjoy diving and hopefully your condition will never result in a serious injury.

Regards

Larry Stein

 

[Laurence Stein DDS]

wingflyer152

You managed to post 30 seconds before me! (with apologies to all attorneys in this group) Eventhough you are supposedly judgement proof. There is always another loophole that an attorney may exploit.

If your actions resulted in the death of another by an error of omission, it is conceivable that you could be brough up on a misdemenor or felony manslaughter charge. Your assets may be in tact but possibly not your lifestyle.

As always, good talking to you.

Regards,

Larry Stein

PS. I wish that if an attorney on the board is reading, perhaps they could put in their two cents--but no billable hours!

 

[enquire]

I am a little confused by some of the statmements above.

I have a friend who really wants to dive. She was diagnosed with epilepsy 21 years ago (after 3 seizures within a 12 month period) but has been seizure free without medication for twenty years (with various EEGs, CAT scans etc showing no evidence of any condition) and has dived (not admitting to the history) a few times.

Would DAN and PADI still exclude her?

 

[wingflyer152]

how about a no ask no tell policy???

 

[wingflyer152]

Stein,

If my doctors say it is ok for me to drive a car down the interstate at 70 mph, then I think it is safe enough for me to dive.