AllenG
Contributor
This thread seems to have evolved into a discussion between NortheastWrecks, Dr. Stein, and me. Aside from my polemics of disability advocacy (sorry, it's an occupational hazard), the three of us are probably in complete agreement re the real issue of any diver displaying responsibility re safety, to oneself, to one's buddy, and to any others participating in the dive. Wingflyer's deviation into the issues of ADA or being judgment-proof only served to distract from the key point.
Some quick final thoughts:
Dr. Stein - Re bias in the information you cited: The "JAN" web site you noted is part of a federally funded, university-based program that, if anything, is going to be more sympathetic to the interests and rights of individuals with disabilities. You need give no concern to the possibility that, in clipping information from that website, you perpetuated some bias or misinformation!
Re the petit mal diagnosis, Wingflyer implied that he was diagnosed with P.M., however, you may have noted that in his 4/23/02 posting, what he actually said was "I keep telling you people that I have petit mal seizures not the convulsive kind, just the blacking out kind. I simply black out and sit there." Are we talking about a neurologist's diagnosis, Wingflyer's self-labeling, or, for that matter, an accurate labeling at all? Who knows? There are several other disorders with a cardinal feature of "blacking out." And, unfortunately, in the hypothetical situation of diving with Wingflyer under his "no ask, no tell" policy, the most that one has re information in the event of an emergency is, well, nothing. And that can be a formula for disaster, disability or not.
Re the incident of 10 yrs asymptomatic and then a calamitous recurrence: This is not the norm, but it is nontheless noteworthy. However, if I can use your words with only the slightest change of diagnosis, consider the person who had a heart attack long ago, but "has been free of any problems for more than 10 years and off medications . . . . Here was a person medically cleared to drive and out of the blue, she had an attack while driving." So was it irresponsible to clear an asymptomatic cardiac history person for driving? Would you see it as irresponsible to clear heart attack survivors for diving or to mandate disclosure of the individual's medical hx to others on the dive? I would hope that you would sooner promote an individualized assessment of risk to promote an informed decision.
Yes, epilepsy is a little different from cardiovascular diseases, but can we find a balance? I think NortheastWrecks captured that balance when, in response to the three hypothetical situations I described in my earlier posting, he suggested that he would seek more information from a diver in a presumably non-threatening manner, evaluate, offer verbal guidance, position himself/offer to be of assistance, or, in the face of persistent cluelessness, hedge by letting the divemaster know of the potential risk. But a strategy such as that offered by NortheastWrecks is reasonable only if the putative risk diver is comfortable and willing to disclose important information, an action which will only be fostered by other divers, certifying agencies, and health care professionals resisting the reflexive response of banning someone from diving simply on the basis of a diagnosis that typically was made by an independent party with no knowledge of diving.
Thanks for considering my position. And to NortheastWrecks, for your thoughtful analysis and response, the offer of the lunch at the best greasy pizza joint in the north Hartford area (and to Dr. Stein, equally erudite, I also extend the invite if the lure of artery-clogging consumables is sufficient to drag you up from New Jersey to Hartford! It may be a long way, but it's good pizza).
Some quick final thoughts:
Dr. Stein - Re bias in the information you cited: The "JAN" web site you noted is part of a federally funded, university-based program that, if anything, is going to be more sympathetic to the interests and rights of individuals with disabilities. You need give no concern to the possibility that, in clipping information from that website, you perpetuated some bias or misinformation!
Re the petit mal diagnosis, Wingflyer implied that he was diagnosed with P.M., however, you may have noted that in his 4/23/02 posting, what he actually said was "I keep telling you people that I have petit mal seizures not the convulsive kind, just the blacking out kind. I simply black out and sit there." Are we talking about a neurologist's diagnosis, Wingflyer's self-labeling, or, for that matter, an accurate labeling at all? Who knows? There are several other disorders with a cardinal feature of "blacking out." And, unfortunately, in the hypothetical situation of diving with Wingflyer under his "no ask, no tell" policy, the most that one has re information in the event of an emergency is, well, nothing. And that can be a formula for disaster, disability or not.
Re the incident of 10 yrs asymptomatic and then a calamitous recurrence: This is not the norm, but it is nontheless noteworthy. However, if I can use your words with only the slightest change of diagnosis, consider the person who had a heart attack long ago, but "has been free of any problems for more than 10 years and off medications . . . . Here was a person medically cleared to drive and out of the blue, she had an attack while driving." So was it irresponsible to clear an asymptomatic cardiac history person for driving? Would you see it as irresponsible to clear heart attack survivors for diving or to mandate disclosure of the individual's medical hx to others on the dive? I would hope that you would sooner promote an individualized assessment of risk to promote an informed decision.
Yes, epilepsy is a little different from cardiovascular diseases, but can we find a balance? I think NortheastWrecks captured that balance when, in response to the three hypothetical situations I described in my earlier posting, he suggested that he would seek more information from a diver in a presumably non-threatening manner, evaluate, offer verbal guidance, position himself/offer to be of assistance, or, in the face of persistent cluelessness, hedge by letting the divemaster know of the potential risk. But a strategy such as that offered by NortheastWrecks is reasonable only if the putative risk diver is comfortable and willing to disclose important information, an action which will only be fostered by other divers, certifying agencies, and health care professionals resisting the reflexive response of banning someone from diving simply on the basis of a diagnosis that typically was made by an independent party with no knowledge of diving.
Thanks for considering my position. And to NortheastWrecks, for your thoughtful analysis and response, the offer of the lunch at the best greasy pizza joint in the north Hartford area (and to Dr. Stein, equally erudite, I also extend the invite if the lure of artery-clogging consumables is sufficient to drag you up from New Jersey to Hartford! It may be a long way, but it's good pizza).
